Biffvernon,
you got there before me.
Hi Guys, I was one of the producers on "A farm for the Future",
Thank you all for your very kind comments.
After two years of battling to get this film made, both Rebecca and I really appreciate this.
As biffvernon pointed out the only way the BBC will realise folks are interested in peak oil and would like more films and features on the matter is if you tell them.
very best wishes
Tim and ( Rebecca)
A Farm for the Future BBC2
Moderator: Peak Moderation
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eatyourveg
- Posts: 1289
- Joined: 15 Jul 2007, 17:02
- Location: uk
Tim Green wrote:Biffvernon,
you got there before me.
Hi Guys, I was one of the producers on "A farm for the Future",
Thank you all for your very kind comments.
After two years of battling to get this film made, both Rebecca and I really appreciate this.
As biffvernon pointed out the only way the BBC will realise folks are interested in peak oil and would like more films and features on the matter is if you tell them.
very best wishes
Tim and ( Rebecca)
First class production, really cleverly done - sort of none threatening to the general public.
Will a DVD be available?
Last edited by eatyourveg on 22 Feb 2009, 22:05, edited 1 time in total.
Well there was the 2006 drama/documentary "If the Oil Runs Out" which I presume was on terrestrial since it was a BBC production I think.Adam Polczyk wrote:Am I correct in thinking that this was the first Peak Oil related documentary to be shown on UK terrestrial TV?
Dotty wrote:Damn I missed it and double damn I can't get iplayer
Well I'd imagine someone could send you a copy. I've saved a flash video version from iPlayer I'd be happy to post out. I am currently having problems converting it to other formats. (Don't appear to have the right codec installed or configured.) But I'm working on it.
I have to say my take on this seems somewhat different to others. I actually found it pretty disturbing.
It was a great doc yes. But the two things I learned were firstly just how vital oil is in food production. I mean I knew that anyway but this film really deepened that thought for me. Like the fact that most organic food is massively dependent on fossil fuels to almost the same degree as non organic foods.
The second thing I really got from it was about how small scale permaculture systems work. These seem incredibly complex things. For instance there's the guy who spent his entire life figuring out how to get the different grasses to work together.
This type of farming necessitates small scale because all the labour is done by human muscle power. Therefore that implies a mass migration for a pretty large percentage of the population from cities to the countryside. For that to happen there has to be first dwellings for these people to move to. Which there isn't. And even if there was these people wouldn't have a clue as to what to do.
The other thing was that there is no where enough people to teach this. I hadn't really thought about it before but as the film made clear most of the existing farmers (and there's not that many anyway) would have to be retrained too. When you think how utterly alien permaculture is going to be to our TV, Xbox and internet skilled workforce how realistic is it for this kind of thing to scale up?
Finally I assume the interviews with Heinberg and Campbell were some while ago. Both now believe peak oil was last year. And the onset of the depression combined with the financial crisis would seem to make decline rate of 2 - 3 percent a year overly optimistic now. I think this figure from Colin Campbell is based on a business as usual scenario ie. going all out to get as much oil as possible. Already I've read that many future oil projects have been shelved because of the economic crises. Then for the UK you have to take into account the Export Land Model: exporting countries will stop exporting a long time before they run out of oil.
I find it really hard to envisage how this country is going to switch small scale permaculture farming in the probable time frame available. Then there's the reality of our political institutions who think subsidising car production and printing money are going to solve the problem.
It was a great doc yes. But the two things I learned were firstly just how vital oil is in food production. I mean I knew that anyway but this film really deepened that thought for me. Like the fact that most organic food is massively dependent on fossil fuels to almost the same degree as non organic foods.
The second thing I really got from it was about how small scale permaculture systems work. These seem incredibly complex things. For instance there's the guy who spent his entire life figuring out how to get the different grasses to work together.
This type of farming necessitates small scale because all the labour is done by human muscle power. Therefore that implies a mass migration for a pretty large percentage of the population from cities to the countryside. For that to happen there has to be first dwellings for these people to move to. Which there isn't. And even if there was these people wouldn't have a clue as to what to do.
The other thing was that there is no where enough people to teach this. I hadn't really thought about it before but as the film made clear most of the existing farmers (and there's not that many anyway) would have to be retrained too. When you think how utterly alien permaculture is going to be to our TV, Xbox and internet skilled workforce how realistic is it for this kind of thing to scale up?
Finally I assume the interviews with Heinberg and Campbell were some while ago. Both now believe peak oil was last year. And the onset of the depression combined with the financial crisis would seem to make decline rate of 2 - 3 percent a year overly optimistic now. I think this figure from Colin Campbell is based on a business as usual scenario ie. going all out to get as much oil as possible. Already I've read that many future oil projects have been shelved because of the economic crises. Then for the UK you have to take into account the Export Land Model: exporting countries will stop exporting a long time before they run out of oil.
I find it really hard to envisage how this country is going to switch small scale permaculture farming in the probable time frame available. Then there's the reality of our political institutions who think subsidising car production and printing money are going to solve the problem.
Prono, luckily agriculture uses a pretty small fraction of total oil therefore even with steep declines it's possible to maintain the same oil input for agriculture for quite a while - if we find a way to prioritise it right.
Just because something is complex doesn't mean it can't be rapidly deployed very widely. Think how complicated and the development times for technology. Do you know how the latest microprocessor works? It's taken decades of extreme specialism but you'll find on in almost every home.
Just because something is complex doesn't mean it can't be rapidly deployed very widely. Think how complicated and the development times for technology. Do you know how the latest microprocessor works? It's taken decades of extreme specialism but you'll find on in almost every home.
Guys permaculture isn't complicated.
All you need to know is which plants are shade bearing or shade tolerant and a little about soils and climate (just like your garden; finding the right crops for the right area)
If I ever finally buy a small patch of land I will follow the permaculture principles exactly.
I would grow non-dwarf hardy apple varieties and grafted hybrid sweet chesnuts as the main crops. In openings I would plant grafted hazel bushes, wild raspberrys and wild strawberries and possibly allow a section to turn into brambles- the most hardy and productive fruit crop of all.
TBH IMO, I think modern agriculture is far harder. what with knowing the exact time and amount of fertilizer/pesticide/herbicide/fungicide to apply, and battling through the variable input costs, and time and effort with the constant fight against nature. A forest garden takes care of its self.
All you need to know is which plants are shade bearing or shade tolerant and a little about soils and climate (just like your garden; finding the right crops for the right area)
If I ever finally buy a small patch of land I will follow the permaculture principles exactly.
I would grow non-dwarf hardy apple varieties and grafted hybrid sweet chesnuts as the main crops. In openings I would plant grafted hazel bushes, wild raspberrys and wild strawberries and possibly allow a section to turn into brambles- the most hardy and productive fruit crop of all.
TBH IMO, I think modern agriculture is far harder. what with knowing the exact time and amount of fertilizer/pesticide/herbicide/fungicide to apply, and battling through the variable input costs, and time and effort with the constant fight against nature. A forest garden takes care of its self.
Even if things get REALLY bad, I'm sure that there is enough info in books and in other media formats to permit a wafer lab to be (re)built.Do you know how the latest microprocessor works?
OK, maybe we wouldn't be able to build a Pentium ... but clunky old Z80s or similar should be doable with intermediate tec plant ... and you can do a LOT even with a clunky old microprocessor.
On top of that we have a gadzillion of current computers to loot or refurbish.
Computers aren't going away anytime soon.
Exactly ... which is why I see government controlled agriculture re-appearing ... possibly with rationing and limited access to food growing areas.Prono, luckily agriculture uses a pretty small fraction of total oil therefore even with steep declines it's possible to maintain the same oil input for agriculture for quite a while - if we find a way to prioritise it right.
Anyone who can farm efficiently - especially on a large scale and with low energy inputs - could enjoy a decent standard of living in a low energy world.
Hmmm....I think that's rather over-simplifying permaculture a lot. IME, you have to know a huge amount about soil, pests and climate, and be able to source the right plants for the right spot. Ironically, this last item has been the most challenging for me.chris25 wrote:Guys permaculture isn't complicated.
All you need to know is which plants are shade bearing or shade tolerant and a little about soils and climate (just like your garden; finding the right crops for the right area)
If I ever finally buy a small patch of land I will follow the permaculture principles exactly.
I would grow non-dwarf hardy apple varieties and grafted hybrid sweet chesnuts as the main crops. In openings I would plant grafted hazel bushes, wild raspberrys and wild strawberries and possibly allow a section to turn into brambles- the most hardy and productive fruit crop of all.
TBH IMO, I think modern agriculture is far harder. what with knowing the exact time and amount of fertilizer/pesticide/herbicide/fungicide to apply, and battling through the variable input costs, and time and effort with the constant fight against nature. A forest garden takes care of its self.
However, I do agree that modern agriculture is just as difficult. Understanding the complex web of chemicals to use to get the best from plants is actually making the job of growing more difficult. In a rich, active soil, much of the web is dealt with by nature, but if you batter the hell out of the soil so that it becomes nothing more than a poor sponge for water, you have so many more problems.
Done. 20 posts there now.and to get the message across to the BBC add a comment on the thread I started at http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbpointsofview ... =25&skip=0
My point wasn't about losing computers, rather that computers show how complex things can be widely available. Maybe it's a bad analogy.Vortex wrote:Computers aren't going away anytime soon.
What about a skill like learning to drive. That's pretty tricky to learn but everyone manages. In a similar way we could all learn the principles of garden farming.
"Done. 20 posts there now."
Yes but have you seen Emmerdale is on 12326 posts , and it's not even on the damn BBC, ?
I think we have to do better then 20.
writing now.
Anyway the reason I was posting was to say Patrick Whitefield's "Earth Care Manual" is the bible in our house now, it puts permaculture into really easy simple terms to understand and permaculture isn't difficult it's a lot of common sense.
Yes but have you seen Emmerdale is on 12326 posts , and it's not even on the damn BBC, ?
I think we have to do better then 20.
writing now.
Anyway the reason I was posting was to say Patrick Whitefield's "Earth Care Manual" is the bible in our house now, it puts permaculture into really easy simple terms to understand and permaculture isn't difficult it's a lot of common sense.
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WolfattheDoor
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Has anybody examined the process of turning an intensive, monoculture farm with "dead" soil into a permaculture-based "future farm"? Is there any sort of article on the problems and actions?
www.wolfatthedoor.org.uk
Alerting the world to the dangers of peak oil
Alerting the world to the dangers of peak oil
I'm not aware of any publications or peer-review stuff on rejuvenating depleted land and soil but the more conventional organics guys seem to manage some sort of transition in 2 or 3 years (although fertility and yield continues to build each year for at least 15 years after that).
The fastest "soil building" (which is really the heart of it) I've read about is John Jeavon's biointensive system. Can't remember the figures but I'm sure soil building was a few hundred times faster than natural soil accumulation.
It's certainly do-able in a pretty short time but as any farmer will tell you it only takes one bad harvest to go out of business so the biggest obstacle is probably economic rather than biological.
The fastest "soil building" (which is really the heart of it) I've read about is John Jeavon's biointensive system. Can't remember the figures but I'm sure soil building was a few hundred times faster than natural soil accumulation.
It's certainly do-able in a pretty short time but as any farmer will tell you it only takes one bad harvest to go out of business so the biggest obstacle is probably economic rather than biological.
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treaclemine
- Posts: 30
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