Prepare to be sick......

[biffvernon]

No, I'm pulling Biff's leg...he thinks Gordon Brown isn't responsible for the economic equivalent of Tony Blair's war. As many lives will be ruined off the back of what Gordon's done.

Oh come off it. Or is Brown responsible for Securities trading in the USA, subprime mortgages, the collapse of the Russian stockmarket etc etc. Come on oilslick, see how many G20 finance ministers you can name that come out of this mess smelling of roses. As I've said before, laying loads of blame for the financial situation at Brown's door is a distraction.

But as for Brown's support for Heathrow...

[DominicJ]

Oh come off it. Or is Brown responsible for Securities trading in the USA, subprime mortgages

No, he is however responsible for securities trading in the UK and mortgages in the UK.
We have our own disaster thats entirely separate from the americans.
It was caused by the same incompetance, but its sod all to do with subprime mortgages in America

how many G20 finance ministers you can name that come out of this mess smelling of roses.

None, whats your point?
Its ok to be criminaly negligent as long as everyone else was?

Dont you spend your days shouting at "bankers" for that?

[oilslick]

Should we have let Hitler off because the Italians weren't very nice. The Russians weren't that great either. Nor were the Japanese. Sure we had a few things we'd rather not talk about.

Obviously the system was brutal which resulted in people being murdered.

By your logic it's a distraction to blame individuals and instead concentrate on the system.

I think you need to look at both options as they're very much linked. The system is made up of individuals and Brown is up there with any of them as the one who has pushed this as much as he can and is now robbing us of a decent future.

[Totally_Baffled]

Blair wins a million dollars!

The former Prime Minister received the £697,000 award from the Dan David Foundation based at Tel Aviv University which describes him as "one of the most outstanding statesmen of our era."

There is praise for his roles in Northern Ireland and Kosovo, but there is no mention of the conflicts in Afghanistan or Iraq.

Your comments please?

[gug]

Blair wins a million dollars!

The former Prime Minister received the £697,000 award from the Dan David Foundation based at Tel Aviv University which describes him as "one of the most outstanding statesmen of our era."

There is praise for his roles in Northern Ireland and Kosovo, but there is no mention of the conflicts in Afghanistan or Iraq.

Your comments please?

Simply part of his pay off for work done.

When you finally accept that the world is run by, in effect, criminal gangs, its bizarre how much sense it all starts to make.

[2 As and a B]

When you finally accept that the world is run by, in effect, criminal gangs, its bizarre how much sense it all starts to make.

So true.

Verdict due in Mills bribery case

A verdict is expected later in Italy in the trial of British tax lawyer David Mills, who is accused of taking bribes from Italian PM Silvio Berlusconi.

It is alleged Mr Mills took more than £400,000 to give false testimony in two corruption trials involving the Italian leader. Both men deny any wrongdoing.

Prosecutors say Mr Mills used the money on a joint mortgage with his estranged wife, UK minister Tessa Jowell.

Ms Jowell was cleared of wrongdoing and Mr Berlusconi was granted immunity.

...

After being swept into power for a third time last April, Mr Berlusconi proposed the controversial law granting legal immunity to the four most senior office holders in Italy, which includes the post of prime minister.

The bill was passed by both houses of parliament, with supporters arguing that the amendment was needed to allow the top state officials to focus on doing their jobs without legal distraction.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7894016.stm

Edited: Actually it gets worse:

Q&A: Berlusconi v the courts

What are the charges in this case?

David Mills is accused of accepting a bribe of $600,000 from the Italian Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi, in exchange for giving false testimony in court. Both men deny any wrongdoing.

...

What sentence could Mr Mills face?

The prosecution has asked for a jail sentence of four years and eight months.

Italy's lengthy appeals process and statute of limitations make it unlikely that Mr Mills would actually go to jail, even if he is convicted.

On top of that, a lawyer for the Prime Minister's office, Gabriella Vanadia, says that - if convicted - Mr Mills should be ordered to pay damages of 250,000 euros (£225,000) to the Italian state for perversion of the course of justice and harm to the reputation of the office of the prime minister.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7889288.stm

[JohnB]

I keep thinking of Animal Farm, and how accurate it is. I'm just not sure how the happy ending will come about.

[Billhook]

Perhaps the core reason for holding politicians to account is for society to enact the defenestration of the deficient ideologies they embody.

The fact of Thatcher being ousted by party coup, rather than by resounding election defeat,
may be proposed as a major reason for subsequent governments maintaining the rule of her vicious devil-take-the-hindermost corporatism.

Brown needs to be publicly humiliated to minimize the probability of a future govt. again declaring
that the ideology of privatization of resources and the socialization of risk was the ideal,
but he/she/the previous lizard was just not good at managing it.

His personal defenestration, far from being a distraction from systemic failure, is thus potentially the starting point for systemic reform.

Regards,

Billhook

[biffvernon]

Brown needs to be publicly humiliated to minimize the probability of a future govt. again declaring
that the ideology of privatization of resources and the socialization of risk was the ideal,

That would be fine if the alternative to a Labour government were to be an improvement. On the past record and present showing I can't see how the Tories would be.

[DominicJ]

In what way was thatcher in favouring of socialisng losses?
Examples please

As for the current Tories, "Dave", has just gone all out for localism, he could be as sincere as Labour were with topugh on crime, but lets give him a chance to fail.

[Billhook]

Brown needs to be publicly humiliated to minimize the probability of a future govt. again declaring
that the ideology of privatization of resources and the socialization of risk was the ideal,

That would be fine if the alternative to a Labour government were to be an improvement. On the past record and present showing I can't see how the Tories would be.

Agreed.

Therefore I suggest that all persons seeking systemic reform

a/. join either the Liberal Democrats or the Green Party forthwith, and

b/. make a point of participating in local meetings & functions to courteously advance reform ideas, and

c/. call specifically for a Green-Lib Dem Alliance in which LDs field no candidate in several seats where Greens would then have a chance,
and Greens field no candidates where LDs have a chance, and both parties call for their supporters to vote strategically,
meaning that ,

d/. we maximize the possibility of a hung parliament where radical ideas can get a public hearing.

No guarantees of course, but IMHO a better bet than awaiting a damascene mass conversion of the tory elite.
After all, Gadarenes will be Gadarenes . . . .

Regards,

Billhook

[IanG]

Green Party

Last month, for the first time in my life I'd thought I'd go to a political meeting.

The nearest green party meet in a pub once a month.

I was early so ordered a beer and waited. Whilst ordering the beer I asked the bar man where did they meet. Thinking it would be in a large room upstairs. He gestered towards a small table in the corner.

20 mins after 'the meeting' was supposed to start two people turned up. One real ale and a lemonade.

I decided not to bother to introduce myself and stayed to finish my beer, eventually 2 others turned up.

I'm sure green party members are sincere and good people, but don't expect too much from them.....

[emordnilap]

Fair play to the four who did turn up.

[IanG]

I think it was more four friends meeting for a regular beer, than a hot bed of political activity

[DominicJ]

My local Tories meet the first monday of every month, theres between 10 and 20 of us, 10 of us are out leafletting most saturday mornings, but we cover an entire metropoliton borough of over 200,000 souls.

From from awaiting a conversion of the Tory elite, we're forcing the issue with quite open threats that we'll defect to UKIP if "Dave" dilutes The Plan.


The Lib Dems are neither Liberal nor Democratic and the Greens, crikey Stalins a libertarian by comparison.
But, if they're your choice, good look, the more (choice) the merrier.

IanG
Political campaigning (at the local level) is hard, thankless and quite miserable work, if you want an active local green party, pay your sodding £10 and organise it yourself.