PowerSwitch

http://www.pm.gov.uk/output/Page10207.asp

Shame we didn't know about this in advance. Still, a few people got oil questions in there.

The point of "Why do we bother conserving, in the face of Chinese expansion?" is interesting.

We might "feel better" if we drive less and use eco bulbs ... but at the end of the day we know in our souls that China and many other energy users will simply gobble up any energy which isn't bolted down.

So why not buy that patio heater or that SUV whilst you have the chance?

I suspect the main purpose of this sort of forum is that we can be ready for the "crash" when it comes ... we certainly can't prevent Doomsday or even delay it much.

In some ways I would rather the impact hit soon, before I'm a pensioner and whilst we still have a reasonable amount of oil reserves to help in the post-crash period.

Just imagine being a pensioner in a cold, dark, energy deprived world ... with nothing but worse to come ... yuk.

As you say, Vortex, The better prepared we are individually the easier it will be for us when oil does get short. Also if we can get the country as a whole prepared the easier it will be all round.

If we could pursuade the government to build all the new houses it is proposing to a decent standard i.e. AECB Silver or Gold at least they wouldn't need much heating.

The big thing we need to do is to start teaching our children to garden. I mentioned Peak Oil to the headmaster of our childrens' former primary school and he looked at me as if I was mad. A friend's son goes to a school with a gardening club but it only has room for 20 kids in year 7 and is oversubscribed. Better than nothing I suppose.

Let's all get the message across as widely as possible.

Vortex wrote:The point of "Why do we bother conserving, in the face of Chinese expansion?" is interesting.

We might "feel better" if we drive less and use eco bulbs ... but at the end of the day we know in our souls that China and many other energy users will simply gobble up any energy which isn't bolted down.

Here are some interesting numbers, sourced from the CIA World Factbook and NationMaster:

They would appear to suggest that to achieve parity with the UK, the average Chinese person would need not only double, nor quadruple their oil consuption.

Almost six times as much is consumed by the average UK citizen.

The average Chinese person would have to more than double the amount again to get close to average US citizens consumption, at 13.8 X the Chinese.

If we are to say (as would appear to be a common notion) that 'The average person in China has less right to the Earths resources than have I myself', we ought perhaps to be clear about our rationale for assuming what might appear to be an inherently 'racist' position.

Yet such a position appears so often to be the default when I hear radio reports warning of 'China's Insatiable Appetite for OIL' and suchlike.

I don't think it's racist, it's avaricous. It's a case of, "Why should they have any of OUR oil?" We've got it, so why should they have any of it?

They want what we have, so if we are to influence them to use less than we are, we have to use less ourselves.

kenneal wrote: "Why should they have any of OUR oil?" We've got it, so why should they have any of it?

'OUR' oil? How is it 'OUR' oil? By exactly what rationale do we suppose that WE have more right to it than them? Certainly not it's geographical location.

Take, for instance, an article from yesterdays LA Times as an example of the staggering level of hypocrisy and naivety required to maintain such a position:

China: Oil at any cost

October 27, 2006

IN BEIJING NEXT WEEK, leaders of 48 African countries will converge for the largest international summit in modern Chinese history. Many will go home with what they came to collect: rich incentives to sign deals trading away their natural resources to China.

China's fast-growing economy has created a deep thirst for oil that has pushed it to do business with some of the most corrupt and dangerous regimes on Earth, several of them in Africa.

(here)

Erm... anyone remember Ken Saro-Wiwa?

...and let's not lose sight of the fact that a large proportion of of China's oil consumption is accounted for in making plastic crap for US to throw away.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.

If we are to say (as would appear to be a common notion) that 'The average person in China has less right to the Earths resources than have I myself', we ought perhaps to be clear about our rationale for assuming what might appear to be an inherently 'racist' position.

I was saying that the GENERAL attitude is not racist, it's avaricous. People in general in the west, and many Americans, in particular, have the attitude that they have a God given right to as much oil as they can use. I wasn't infering that anyone on this site has that attitude.

My main point was that if we carry on as we are and don't reduce our consumption, what right have we to tell anyone else to reduce their consumption. Also if we do reduce our consumption drastically, because that is what is needed, we will be in a far better position economically and socially when oil gets short.

Kenneal -

you are, in a sense, writing about the "Convergence" part of the global policy framework of " Contraction & Convergence"
when you write of the need for us to cut our profligate FF consumption if developing nations are to be pursuaded to limit theirs.

We urgently need that global framework for the requisite binding commitments to be made -
without it, nothing changes, as no state will radically constrict its energy use knowing that others are free to profit by its policy.

If it's of interest, then have a look at - www.gci.org.uk - which is the site of the 'Global Commons Institute'
that has developed and promoted Contraction & Convergence since 1990.

Regards,

Bill

Bill, it is about Convergence, but we need both at the moment.

The problem is that our government is talking about reducing CO2 output but not really doing anything about it. It's patently obvious to every one but them. They've been relying on the "dash for gas" to reduce our CO2 output but with the gas shortage the strategy has been scuppered.

Ken