If you want any recent evidence about the value of gold/savings in a bank you could do worse than go to goldmoney.com and press the "Why Gold" tab on the left hand column to see what has actually happened to savings and gold over recent years.
But what do you think?
Is the bank the best place to leave your money?
Moderator: Peak Moderation
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SILVERHARP2
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I invest all my spare cash in renewables and stuff for my home, seems like a good bet to me. In the short term, it means that I have even more spare cash, as my utility bills are steadily chopped away.
Which means more spare cash for the odd UK holiday . . . when I can get any time off!
Which means more spare cash for the odd UK holiday . . . when I can get any time off!
Andy Hunt
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
Eternal Sunshine wrote: I wouldn't want to worry you with the truth.
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mikepepler
- Site Admin
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- Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
- Location: Rye, UK
- Contact:
I've spent a certain amount of money on preparing for PO, but as we are in a rented house there's only so much you can spend! The rest is in the bank, as I want it liquid - we may see that ideal piece of woodland at any time, and want the cash ready to buy it. In the medium term though, I don't intend to leave much money anywhere, whether it is in cash, gold, stocks or whatever. I intend to have invested all I have in buying woodland and useful equipment, and just have enough cash in the bank for everyday needs. We're obviously not yet at the point where its urgent to turn cash into land and equipment, but I hope I'll be done before that time comes, or at least see it coming... 
You're spot on about the woodland - if I can get enough cash together for a bit, that's the next thing on my list.
Andy Hunt
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
Eternal Sunshine wrote: I wouldn't want to worry you with the truth.
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mikepepler
- Site Admin
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I've seen plots of 5-10 acres for as little as ?19,000 depending on the "quality". Some good mature woodland costs more, maybe ?30k for 10 acres. Features such as it being flat or hilly affect the price, and being next to a river or including a meadow puts the price way up. Quite a few include small streams though. I think it would be a fantastic investment, as long is it is near where I live. Firewood, food, wood for craft & building, and a generally pleasant place to encourage biodiversity. It's be nice to be able to involve people from the the local community too.Andy Hunt wrote:You're spot on about the woodland - if I can get enough cash together for a bit, that's the next thing on my list.
But maybe I have rose-tinted specs on
Would your other half be OK with you spending ?20K-?30K on a bit of woodland?
My partner is pretty good with all the peak oil stuff, and very encouraging of my solar panels etc (she has been invaluable during the installations, very practically minded and helpful), but I think she might draw the line at me spending so much money on a bit of land. Not when there are loft conversions, holidays, Mini Mayfair renovations etc to be paid for . . .
My partner is pretty good with all the peak oil stuff, and very encouraging of my solar panels etc (she has been invaluable during the installations, very practically minded and helpful), but I think she might draw the line at me spending so much money on a bit of land. Not when there are loft conversions, holidays, Mini Mayfair renovations etc to be paid for . . .
Andy Hunt
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
Eternal Sunshine wrote: I wouldn't want to worry you with the truth.
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mikepepler
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- Location: Rye, UK
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Tracy's more up for doing it than me! She's not into the science/engineering side of Peak Oil, and probably visits this site a couple of times a year, but she understands the problem fully and is completely into moving towards a sustainable way of life. We've made all the decisions together so far, like getting rid of the TV and one of the cars. I know I'm very fortunate that she's completely on board, as I've heard others talking about the stress and trouble when only one of a couple fully accepts the situation.Andy Hunt wrote:Would your other half be OK with you spending ?20K-?30K on a bit of woodland?
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alternative-energy
- Posts: 235
- Joined: 22 Jan 2006, 10:20
I think a diversified asset rich portfolio has got to be the answer to protect your wealth for the future
ideas could be...
Oil stocks
Gold and silver
Alternative energy trust (MNE)
some Cash
Check out
http://www.greenenergyinvestors.com/index.php? for some ideas
Property and land would also be choice but i have a feeling that the former is due for a correction as interest rates climb
I also really like the idea of buying some woodland but again the prices round my way do seem expensive. I agree, I guess the key is finding one nice and close to home that has been well managed in the past.
ideas could be...
Oil stocks
Gold and silver
Alternative energy trust (MNE)
some Cash
Check out
http://www.greenenergyinvestors.com/index.php? for some ideas
Property and land would also be choice but i have a feeling that the former is due for a correction as interest rates climb
I also really like the idea of buying some woodland but again the prices round my way do seem expensive. I agree, I guess the key is finding one nice and close to home that has been well managed in the past.
My diversified asset rich portfolio is:
A store of seeds for next year.
As much permanent edible planting around my garden as I can manage, more to follow.
Three compost heaps.
A stash of wool and fabric, with hand powered sewing and knitting machines
A full log store behind my house
Enough cash in the credit union to get me through some sort of crisis
Bicycle with panniers and two fully inflated tyres
My extravagent luxury is currently a four legged feline, although she does catch the occasional mouse or bird.
I try to keep enough money in the bank (Currently Abbey, seriously thinking of moving accounts), to cover the bills we still have and to take advantage of the small discounts firms give you for using direct debits.
If I did invest it would probably be in things such as chocolate, tights, cigarettes and sanitary towels.
A store of seeds for next year.
As much permanent edible planting around my garden as I can manage, more to follow.
Three compost heaps.
A stash of wool and fabric, with hand powered sewing and knitting machines
A full log store behind my house
Enough cash in the credit union to get me through some sort of crisis
Bicycle with panniers and two fully inflated tyres
My extravagent luxury is currently a four legged feline, although she does catch the occasional mouse or bird.
I try to keep enough money in the bank (Currently Abbey, seriously thinking of moving accounts), to cover the bills we still have and to take advantage of the small discounts firms give you for using direct debits.
If I did invest it would probably be in things such as chocolate, tights, cigarettes and sanitary towels.
I've been watching a bit of land near me that is about 3 acres of woodland with about the same of meadow/pasture. Presumably, having the pasture would enable me to keep animals, or should it be planted for more woodland...? It's about 2 miles from where I live - is this too far do you think? I wouldn't exactly be on hand to defend my stock if rootin' tootin' rustles came a rustlin'mikepepler wrote:I've seen plots of 5-10 acres for as little as ?19,000 depending on the "quality". Some good mature woodland costs more, maybe ?30k for 10 acres. Features such as it being flat or hilly affect the price, and being next to a river or including a meadow puts the price way up.Andy Hunt wrote:You're spot on about the woodland - if I can get enough cash together for a bit, that's the next thing on my list.
- maybe that's a good thing? What do you think? It's pricey too at ?40,000, but I could probably get it for less - it's been on the market for ages. Getting the wood home could also be a challenge...-
mikepepler
- Site Admin
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- Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
- Location: Rye, UK
- Contact:
Sounds like it's near enough to me. You can always get a bike with a trailer for bringing wood home. But don't underestimate how much time you're going to need to put into the woodland to make it productive in wood products and food. From what I can tell, something like 20-25 acres can keep a person fully employed.Joules wrote:I've been watching a bit of land near me that is about 3 acres of woodland with about the same of meadow/pasture. Presumably, having the pasture would enable me to keep animals, or should it be planted for more woodland...? It's about 2 miles from where I live - is this too far do you think? I wouldn't exactly be on hand to defend my stock if rootin' tootin' rustles came a rustlin'
Some examples worked out without too many complications!..........
You have ?10,000, stick it in ING interest account (currently 4.75% gross) so at the end of the year you have ?10,000 x 4.75% = ?475, but you only get the net amount credited, ?104 goes to the government and you end up with ?10,372 at the end of year one (that's net interest of 3.72% which is something similar I think to the official rate of inflation - so officially and approximately you may be marginally better or worse off - not alot in it). However, I have read in various places that the real rate of inflation is running at about 8.5% and if this is true then the buying power of that money has now shrunk by 4.78% and buys the same as ?9,500 would have done at the start of the investment.
If you have ?10,000 to put in the bank you are, of course, in the minority because savers are getting rarer and rarer.
The ?10,000 you deposit at the bank then allows the bank through fractional reserve banking rules to loan out ?100,000, and viola as a direct consequence of your investment another ?90,000 is born (which will further help to erode the value of your investment as more money sloshes round the system). NOW FOR THE MOST MARVELLOUS THING FOR THE BANK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The day before you invested your ?10,000 the bank had nothing. The day after you enabled them to create ?90,000 which the guy who borrowed it is going to pay interest on!!!! At the moment a very good tracker rate for loans is 5.25% which on the ?100,000 is ?5,250. You are receiving 4.75 on your money, so 5.25 - 4.75 = .5% so poor old bank only makes ?50 on the difference between what he pays you in interest and what he charges the next guy, but add that to the clear profit he makes on the ?90,000 that he just created out of nowhere (also lets no forget to add the pretty standard arrangement fee that people have to cough up as well of ?600), ?90,000 x 5.25% = ?4,725 + ?50 + ?600 = ?5,375.
To sum up the bank has in one year
1. Paid you ?372 in interest
2. Paid the government ?104 in tax
3. Helped to deflate the true purchasing power of your ?10,000 to ?9,500
4. Created ?90,000 for itself - all thanks to you - you really do deserve the ?372 - its their way of saying thankyou!
5. Earnt ?5,375!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Are you still so fond of the bank?!!!!
Is it really the best place to leave your money?
In reality the average is not going to be as good as the above as many people are having to pay much higher interest rates for money loaned and many people as not getting such good interest rates on their savings, which all means the banks are likely to do significantly better than my little example
You have ?10,000, stick it in ING interest account (currently 4.75% gross) so at the end of the year you have ?10,000 x 4.75% = ?475, but you only get the net amount credited, ?104 goes to the government and you end up with ?10,372 at the end of year one (that's net interest of 3.72% which is something similar I think to the official rate of inflation - so officially and approximately you may be marginally better or worse off - not alot in it). However, I have read in various places that the real rate of inflation is running at about 8.5% and if this is true then the buying power of that money has now shrunk by 4.78% and buys the same as ?9,500 would have done at the start of the investment.
If you have ?10,000 to put in the bank you are, of course, in the minority because savers are getting rarer and rarer.
The ?10,000 you deposit at the bank then allows the bank through fractional reserve banking rules to loan out ?100,000, and viola as a direct consequence of your investment another ?90,000 is born (which will further help to erode the value of your investment as more money sloshes round the system). NOW FOR THE MOST MARVELLOUS THING FOR THE BANK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The day before you invested your ?10,000 the bank had nothing. The day after you enabled them to create ?90,000 which the guy who borrowed it is going to pay interest on!!!! At the moment a very good tracker rate for loans is 5.25% which on the ?100,000 is ?5,250. You are receiving 4.75 on your money, so 5.25 - 4.75 = .5% so poor old bank only makes ?50 on the difference between what he pays you in interest and what he charges the next guy, but add that to the clear profit he makes on the ?90,000 that he just created out of nowhere (also lets no forget to add the pretty standard arrangement fee that people have to cough up as well of ?600), ?90,000 x 5.25% = ?4,725 + ?50 + ?600 = ?5,375.
To sum up the bank has in one year
1. Paid you ?372 in interest
2. Paid the government ?104 in tax
3. Helped to deflate the true purchasing power of your ?10,000 to ?9,500
4. Created ?90,000 for itself - all thanks to you - you really do deserve the ?372 - its their way of saying thankyou!
5. Earnt ?5,375!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Are you still so fond of the bank?!!!!
Is it really the best place to leave your money?
In reality the average is not going to be as good as the above as many people are having to pay much higher interest rates for money loaned and many people as not getting such good interest rates on their savings, which all means the banks are likely to do significantly better than my little example
Nice one, Pippa!
Anyone up for a critical examination of what 'money' actually is?
Where does it come from?
Ask most people that question and they'll tell you that 'the Government' print it. Not so.
We are constantly invited to consider 'money' to be nothing more than a 'neutral medium of exchange', which merely facilitates the exchange of goods and services within an economy, rather than a political tool of cohersion and repression.
'Money' - as we know it - is borrowed into existence by 'Government' in the form of 'Bonds' - promisory notes - 'sold' to a central bank for their face value, secured against future tax revenues.
These 'bonds' carry a premium - or charge in addition to their face value - generally refered to as their 'yield' or 'interest'.
OK. Lets assume for the purpose of demonstration that we are on an island with a population of 10 individuals in the 'economy' and one Bank(er).
For these 10 individuals to trade goods and services they need a 'medium of exchange', which will be supplied by the Bank - 'lent' onto the 'economy' - at a premium of 10% (to keep the figures simple).
The Bank lends each of our islanders ?100, expecting upon maturity of the loan a return of ?110 - thats the intitial sum plus the 10% interest. So the Bank stands to make ?100 on top of the ?1000. With me so far?
OK. So where is that extra ?100 going to come from? The Bank only lent ?1000 'into existence'. How is the 10th individual going to find the ?110 to pay back to the Bank? Because only ?1000 is in 'circulation' within our island 'economy', what we can see here is the mechanism by which our islanders are forced into unnatural 'competition' with each other in order to repay the loan.
By it's very nature, a 'competition' will have a 'loser'. In this case, the 'loser' will be the 10th individual who cannot repay the loan as ther is only ?10 left in the 'economy' to do so. 9 X ?110 paid back by the 'winners' is ?990.
So what options are open to our 'loser'?
Their only option is to either borrow more from the Bank, forfeit property (real wealth) or perhaps engage in some 'overseas adventure' to bring 'wealth' in from some outside 'loser' on another island.
This is the fundamental mechanism that underpins the 'debt based monetary system'. The need for 'growth' is systemic.
A political tool that by it's very nature will concentrate real wealth in the hands of those with at the expense of those without.
...And don't tell me there is 'No Alternative'. If a 'Government' is able to issue a promisory note to a central bank (at interest), there is no reason that they cannot issue the equivalent in debt free currency themselves.
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'Debt based' currency is an insidious evil that permeates every aspect of our lives.
Anyone up for a critical examination of what 'money' actually is?
Where does it come from?
Ask most people that question and they'll tell you that 'the Government' print it. Not so.
We are constantly invited to consider 'money' to be nothing more than a 'neutral medium of exchange', which merely facilitates the exchange of goods and services within an economy, rather than a political tool of cohersion and repression.
'Money' - as we know it - is borrowed into existence by 'Government' in the form of 'Bonds' - promisory notes - 'sold' to a central bank for their face value, secured against future tax revenues.
These 'bonds' carry a premium - or charge in addition to their face value - generally refered to as their 'yield' or 'interest'.
OK. Lets assume for the purpose of demonstration that we are on an island with a population of 10 individuals in the 'economy' and one Bank(er).
For these 10 individuals to trade goods and services they need a 'medium of exchange', which will be supplied by the Bank - 'lent' onto the 'economy' - at a premium of 10% (to keep the figures simple).
The Bank lends each of our islanders ?100, expecting upon maturity of the loan a return of ?110 - thats the intitial sum plus the 10% interest. So the Bank stands to make ?100 on top of the ?1000. With me so far?
OK. So where is that extra ?100 going to come from? The Bank only lent ?1000 'into existence'. How is the 10th individual going to find the ?110 to pay back to the Bank? Because only ?1000 is in 'circulation' within our island 'economy', what we can see here is the mechanism by which our islanders are forced into unnatural 'competition' with each other in order to repay the loan.
By it's very nature, a 'competition' will have a 'loser'. In this case, the 'loser' will be the 10th individual who cannot repay the loan as ther is only ?10 left in the 'economy' to do so. 9 X ?110 paid back by the 'winners' is ?990.
So what options are open to our 'loser'?
Their only option is to either borrow more from the Bank, forfeit property (real wealth) or perhaps engage in some 'overseas adventure' to bring 'wealth' in from some outside 'loser' on another island.
This is the fundamental mechanism that underpins the 'debt based monetary system'. The need for 'growth' is systemic.
A political tool that by it's very nature will concentrate real wealth in the hands of those with at the expense of those without.
...And don't tell me there is 'No Alternative'. If a 'Government' is able to issue a promisory note to a central bank (at interest), there is no reason that they cannot issue the equivalent in debt free currency themselves.
-
'Debt based' currency is an insidious evil that permeates every aspect of our lives.
Where I live land is expensive; partly because of the green revolution and partly because of building for houses and commerce.alternative-energy wrote:Property and land would also be choice but i have a feeling that the former is due for a correction as interest rates climb
I also really like the idea of buying some woodland but again the prices round my way do seem expensive. I agree, I guess the key is finding one nice and close to home that has been well managed in the past.
The cost of agricultural land sold in large amounts round here is about ?2-?3,000 per acre. The smaller the plot, the larger the sum, the other year I looked at a plot in the next village of just over an acre and the vendor wanted over ?40,000 for it!!!!!!!!
Still, strange things are happening round our parts. We all know that increases in fuel costs impact the farmers direct costs hughly. Now, where ever I drive I see for sale boards up and farmers are selling off small to medium chunks of land (I know someone who is currently negotiating a 2 acre piece which they will then have to seed and fence for their horse - the cost of acquisition is ?18,000 - no doubt on a 100% mortgage!)
I believe that agricultural land is hugely inflated (even at ?2,000 cost per acre) as when the costs of producing grain keep going up and up and maintainence of farm machinery or purchase of bigger and better gets financially impossible, more and more chunks of farm land are going to come up for sale. My question is, who is going to keep buying them, how will they finance the purchase and then repay the loan (they will either have to go into farming wholesale, rent it out to the farmer they bought it from, have a good income source to repay the debt, etc).
Ultimately, to justify any cost (whether ?2,000 or ?40,000 an acre) the land must produce an income that will pay all the costs. When it can't do that the cost must come down.
My advice would be therefore, don't buy farm land now, speak to any farmer you like, making ends meet farming is getting more difficult by the day. There are loads of reasons for this apart from the actual economics of growing food there are also problems with subsidies, competition from other countries, strick rules and regulations (which have meant that local parts of the food chain for distribution and storage such as abatoirs, butchers, storage etc have gone out of business).
Stick your money somewhere else (like gold - which no matter what the government has lead you to believe is a far safer investment then paper money or money in the bank which only exists on a ledger and not in reality at all - who believes in magic?!) and then, whilst you are waiting and wondering what to do next learn some more useful skills.