OK, time to put your cards on the table.
How do Powerswitchers see the BNP? There seem to be a significant number of people here who are sympathetic to some extent or who believe they are relatively harmless. Either way, they don't seem to see the BNP as a real and present threat.
How many of you coy sympathisers are familiar with the early history of the Nazis? They didn't get elected in free elections; they grabbed power, burned down Germany's parliament building, then set about destroying the democratic structures of the Weimar Republic and bringing in discriminatory laws and little by little, taking away liberty, property, livelihoods and lives from those they chose to project their hatred on. They started by burning books in Bebelplatz, outside the Humboldt University in Berlin and ended up burning human beings.
They didn't get their early support by saying they would build gas chambers. They talked much like the BNP does today: British jobs for white British workers; immigration and inundation by lesser foreigners; the unfair imposition of punitive costs by external entities (EU today; post WW1 Treaty of Versailles then).
They grew, fed by the dissatisfaction stemming from the Great Depression. They defined patriotism in narrow, excluding ways. They, like their BNP progeny, were defined by hatred.
Given that peak oil/limits to growth is going to end economic growth, this is highly relevant. Indeed in his recent Thomas Homer-Dixon APPGOPO talk, he said he thought one of the reasons a no growth economic model was unthinkable to TPTB, was precisely its link with the rise of fascism and nazism in the 1930s. There is not much point in having your veg patch all sorted, if we are living in a neo-nazi state, is there.
BNP Powerswitch poll
Moderator: Peak Moderation
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fifthcolumn
- Posts: 2525
- Joined: 22 Nov 2007, 14:07
Unfortunately no matter what you do, if really hard times come there's going to be the rise of strongmen.
It will be your luck which kind of strongman you ultimately get in power.
If you get an augustus caesar or trajan then you're relatively in good shape.
If you get a caligula, a nero or a hitler, you're screwed.
Unfortunately, hitler was pretty good at convincing the masses of what they wanted to hear.
My wife is a visible foreigner and I saw and heard some of the unnneccessary crap she came up against on multiple occasions. That was just from women too. Xenophobia is unfortunately a natural human response and when the herd is under threat non-herd-members are left to fend for themselves or worse.
It will be your luck which kind of strongman you ultimately get in power.
If you get an augustus caesar or trajan then you're relatively in good shape.
If you get a caligula, a nero or a hitler, you're screwed.
Unfortunately, hitler was pretty good at convincing the masses of what they wanted to hear.
My wife is a visible foreigner and I saw and heard some of the unnneccessary crap she came up against on multiple occasions. That was just from women too. Xenophobia is unfortunately a natural human response and when the herd is under threat non-herd-members are left to fend for themselves or worse.
I've voted, but this poll was done recently:
http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/vie ... hp?t=10307
The results I hope were representative, however I only gave two options (caveman topic= caveman options) as I don't like to give them the benefit of sophistication.
The thread got long, heated and was eventually buried, but was quite revealing. It really should have ended up here, not off-topic.
I'm not going to add any comments (not without a bit of arm-twisting anyway) as I've made my views quite well known already.
http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/vie ... hp?t=10307
The results I hope were representative, however I only gave two options (caveman topic= caveman options) as I don't like to give them the benefit of sophistication.
The thread got long, heated and was eventually buried, but was quite revealing. It really should have ended up here, not off-topic.
I'm not going to add any comments (not without a bit of arm-twisting anyway) as I've made my views quite well known already.
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Kentucky Fried Panda
- Posts: 1743
- Joined: 06 Apr 2007, 13:50
- Location: NW Engerland
I can't really cast a vote.
They probably will fade away - but if there were to come to power they would/could be a different animal.
They are only 2 men and a dog at the moment ... any REAL version of the BNP would have HUNDREDS more key players, probably with different agendas.
I'm not even sure if they would turn out to be socialist or capitalist.
They probably will fade away - but if there were to come to power they would/could be a different animal.
They are only 2 men and a dog at the moment ... any REAL version of the BNP would have HUNDREDS more key players, probably with different agendas.
I'm not even sure if they would turn out to be socialist or capitalist.
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2 As and a B
- Posts: 2590
- Joined: 28 Nov 2008, 19:06
Given the opportunity, they would change from national socialist (authoritarian, only caring about their "own kind") to fascist (authoritarian, exterminating all opposition as well as anyone not their "own kind" and financed by industry looking for cheaper labour).
That is what happened with the Nazis. Socialists, communists, anyone on the left was sent to the death camps as well as the Jews, gypsies, handicapped, homosexuals and any others they didn't regard as being as pure as them.
Such people are naturally divisive. Because of some deep seated psychological problem they can't stand anyone being different from them or disagreeing with them. Nick Griffin's victory speech and subsequent media interviews over the past few days are prime examples of the divisive nature of the BNP. The way to oppose them is not to shout abuse and hurl eggs at them. That only serves to allow them to portray themselves as misunderstood victims. Anyway, the people who abuse them are no better themselves.
Engage the BNP in considered, open discussion, I say; don't let them reduce the level of debate to shouting abuse. Give them enough rope and hold back the oxygen of media coverage until we are sure they are going to hang themselves! The media have given them much too high prominence recently IMHO and I wonder why.
That is what happened with the Nazis. Socialists, communists, anyone on the left was sent to the death camps as well as the Jews, gypsies, handicapped, homosexuals and any others they didn't regard as being as pure as them.
Such people are naturally divisive. Because of some deep seated psychological problem they can't stand anyone being different from them or disagreeing with them. Nick Griffin's victory speech and subsequent media interviews over the past few days are prime examples of the divisive nature of the BNP. The way to oppose them is not to shout abuse and hurl eggs at them. That only serves to allow them to portray themselves as misunderstood victims. Anyway, the people who abuse them are no better themselves.
Engage the BNP in considered, open discussion, I say; don't let them reduce the level of debate to shouting abuse. Give them enough rope and hold back the oxygen of media coverage until we are sure they are going to hang themselves! The media have given them much too high prominence recently IMHO and I wonder why.
I'm hippest, no really.
That was a few years ago, more like five men, five women (including 'respectable people) Two pit-bulls (their 'brownshirts') and two labradors.Vortex wrote: They are only 2 men and a dog at the moment ... any REAL version of the BNP would have HUNDREDS more key players, probably with different agendas.
I'm not even sure if they would turn out to be socialist or capitalist.
I don't think they have increased their core racist membership much, but they have given them heart. They have added a lot of disgruntled white folks who have racist tendencies or are looking for someone to blame.
Socialist/capitalist, who knows? Their policies are socialist (to white folks) as DominicJ likes to point out, but when their policies do not work they might decide that a capricious strong-leader is required to get them over the hump.
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marknorthfield
- Posts: 177
- Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
- Location: Bracknell
I could not vote for any of the options given, I'm afraid. I do not believe the BNP's racism is something a significant majority of voters in the UK would ever support, whatever the economic circumstances. They will not rise to power.
Just because they've managed to cross the thresholds necessary to get a few MEPs elected rather conceals the fact that their vote increased far more significantly in 2004 than it did in 2009, despite the 'favourable' circumstances this time round (as I've just pointed out in another thread).
Just because they've managed to cross the thresholds necessary to get a few MEPs elected rather conceals the fact that their vote increased far more significantly in 2004 than it did in 2009, despite the 'favourable' circumstances this time round (as I've just pointed out in another thread).
I hope you are right but I would never rule it out. I personally think society may change beyond all recognition in the next 5 years, and history shows that people are very morally flexible when their backs are to the wall.marknorthfield wrote:I could not vote for any of the options given, I'm afraid. I do not believe the BNP's racism is something a significant majority of voters in the UK would ever support, whatever the economic circumstances. They will not rise to power.
Just because they've managed to cross the thresholds necessary to get a few MEPs elected rather conceals the fact that their vote increased far more significantly in 2004 than it did in 2009, despite the 'favourable' circumstances this time round (as I've just pointed out in another thread).
I agree that, on the whole, Britain is less racist than some countries, but there is a strong suspicion of Islam abroad here, that the BNP could easily capitalise on, especially in the event of further "terrorist" attacks. (And such attacks would not necessarily be unwelcome to the Government, who will be seeking justification for further infringements of civil liberties as the economic crisis threatens public order.)
While the BNP might have a difficult job stoking up, say, anti-Afro-Caribbean sentiment, they have plenty of potential for increasing Islamophobia. They might well swap their general pro-"Arian" stance for a specifically Islamophobic one if it's expedient for winning elections. Once in power, they could get started on blacks, Jews etc. too if they chose.
All I'm saying is that I don't think we should be complacent.
"We're just waiting, looking skyward as the days go down / Someone promised there'd be answers if we stayed around."
As, at this stage, they only have seats by elected means, their presence is nothing more than the wish of some British people. It's those people who are the stupid nazi scum. The likes of Griffin are opportunists.
They won't rise to power - the other parties will change their policies before a significant BNP presence was allowed to grow in Westminster. Of course, how to achieve unfettered economic growth without a stream of cheap labour from abroad is another challenge entirely...
I've voted for won't affect me...
They won't rise to power - the other parties will change their policies before a significant BNP presence was allowed to grow in Westminster. Of course, how to achieve unfettered economic growth without a stream of cheap labour from abroad is another challenge entirely...
I've voted for won't affect me...
Hmm ... go and have a chat with The Man or Woman In The Street sometime.I do not believe the BNP's racism is something a significant majority of voters in the UK would ever support,
They hate politicians and they hate immigration.
I suspect that more than 50% of the white population would like to see very strict immigration controls - and maybe even repatriations.
They might not do the deed themselves but they might look the other way whilst it was happening.
The UKIP received 16.5% of the vote whilst the BNP had 6.2%.
Assuming that a chunk of those UKIP votes were of a BNP mindset, we could have maybe 10% or more of voters who are strongly pre-disposed to the BNP.
I doubt it will be the BNP, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of hard right wing group to emerge as an active and credible force in British politics at some stage.
The smug Politically Correct Lib-Dems and the isolated 'socially aware' Londoners might poo-poo the threat of a right wing backlash - but away from London there IS resentment which clearly can be expoilted by political groups.
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marknorthfield
- Posts: 177
- Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
- Location: Bracknell
Hi Vortex.
Well, I chatted to a fair few people whilst canvassing in Bracknell recently. Disgust for politicians certainly came up (how could it not?), hatred of the EU in some cases, but hatred of immigration was strangely absent (and I expected to hear it somewhere). To be sure, Berkshire is relatively well off, but Bracknell isn't posh by any stretch of the imagination. (Certainly not the bit I'm living in!)
Maybe your 50% figure is right, but, even if it is, does a wish for stronger immigration controls equate to racism? (Or for that matter a desire for repatriation measures?) I think many people would find that a strange leap of logic. Remember, this is a country whose national dish has it's origins in Asia and whose youth are firmly in love with black RnB pop music. Go, as they say, figure.
I see no reason to assume that UKIP supporters are potential BNP supporters-in-waiting. UKIP are effectively a protest vote party by virtue of their name. I'm pretty sure that is why they achieved such large Euro Election percentages in 2004 and 2009 (though obviously I don't have the evidence to prove that, just my gut instinct). I believe the UK to be inherently conservative (with a small 'c') and inclined to distrust extremists of any stripe; the 'credible' right wing force will therefore remain the Conservatives. I'm not convinced that the ending of the economic growth paradigm will automatically lead to hard-right government either, but that's another discussion entirely...
Jakell - I agree that we should not be complacent in the sense of exposing the BNP's intellectual inadequacies and constitutional racism. However, I've heard enough of Nick Griffin and Andrew Brons already to know that they're going to struggle to keep up the smooth talk.
Well, I chatted to a fair few people whilst canvassing in Bracknell recently. Disgust for politicians certainly came up (how could it not?), hatred of the EU in some cases, but hatred of immigration was strangely absent (and I expected to hear it somewhere). To be sure, Berkshire is relatively well off, but Bracknell isn't posh by any stretch of the imagination. (Certainly not the bit I'm living in!)
Maybe your 50% figure is right, but, even if it is, does a wish for stronger immigration controls equate to racism? (Or for that matter a desire for repatriation measures?) I think many people would find that a strange leap of logic. Remember, this is a country whose national dish has it's origins in Asia and whose youth are firmly in love with black RnB pop music. Go, as they say, figure.
I see no reason to assume that UKIP supporters are potential BNP supporters-in-waiting. UKIP are effectively a protest vote party by virtue of their name. I'm pretty sure that is why they achieved such large Euro Election percentages in 2004 and 2009 (though obviously I don't have the evidence to prove that, just my gut instinct). I believe the UK to be inherently conservative (with a small 'c') and inclined to distrust extremists of any stripe; the 'credible' right wing force will therefore remain the Conservatives. I'm not convinced that the ending of the economic growth paradigm will automatically lead to hard-right government either, but that's another discussion entirely...
Jakell - I agree that we should not be complacent in the sense of exposing the BNP's intellectual inadequacies and constitutional racism. However, I've heard enough of Nick Griffin and Andrew Brons already to know that they're going to struggle to keep up the smooth talk.
On a visit to Dachau Concentration Camp near Munich, I was startled to see a WW2 map of the area where I lived in Munich at the time.
It was like a bus stop map, showing Pickup Points every few hundred metres or so ... except these weren't bus stops ... they were Drop Off Your Jews here points.
So mundane - and yet so organised ... and horrifying.
If the Germans could do that then we Brits could certainly organise 'voluntary repatriations'.
We are all too soft. Just look at what happened in the Balkans not that long ago. Or Northern Ireland.
Our pampered lifestyle could disappear in a flash - possibly unleashing all sorts of mayhem.
It was like a bus stop map, showing Pickup Points every few hundred metres or so ... except these weren't bus stops ... they were Drop Off Your Jews here points.
So mundane - and yet so organised ... and horrifying.
If the Germans could do that then we Brits could certainly organise 'voluntary repatriations'.
We are all too soft. Just look at what happened in the Balkans not that long ago. Or Northern Ireland.
Our pampered lifestyle could disappear in a flash - possibly unleashing all sorts of mayhem.
I understand your perspective Vortex. Having just come back from a whistle-stop tour of the UK I have to say I was appalled at the attitude of people outside London. Worcester was the worst of the places I visited by far. The outspoken jingoism of otherwise well-educated people in their 50's and 60's was shocking.
However, under democracy, every country deserves what they vote for. Hopefully the UK will wake up to it's media-driven bigotry before the consequences get too bad.
However, under democracy, every country deserves what they vote for. Hopefully the UK will wake up to it's media-driven bigotry before the consequences get too bad.
