#FreedomFlotilla

[stumuzz]

Ah! Jews are the chosen people reasons for discrimination. That one is just old and boring. First propounded by St Augustine 415 AD. Come on, get up to date with your hatred.

It was Jews are responsible for our economic problems ( lasted trotted out circa 1930’s) that most people get behind.

Where are you digging this shit up from ?
I've not read one post that dragged up anything remotely anti-semitic, apart from your posts that try and suggest it.

Are you on autopilot ? a member of the ADL ? - just trolling ?

Book of Exodus says the hebrew people are God's chosen people, and from them shall come the Messiah, or redeemer of the world - so its not like i came up with the phrase (or St Augustine as you wrongly state) - although my post wasnt (quite obviously to any adults reading) serious. I was taking this piss out of your high and mighty stance and your desperation to have a fight on your terms, rather than any of the terms actually stated by any posters.


Stop trolling and debate like an adult.

I’m not digging anything up. This anti Semitic stuff is so bountiful and has always been. Its all around everyday.

The point about St Augustine was he had a go at the Jews for being the chosen people 1500 years before you did.

[gug]

Ah! Jews are the chosen people reasons for discrimination. That one is just old and boring. First propounded by St Augustine 415 AD. Come on, get up to date with your hatred.

It was Jews are responsible for our economic problems ( lasted trotted out circa 1930’s) that most people get behind.

Where are you digging this shit up from ?
I've not read one post that dragged up anything remotely anti-semitic, apart from your posts that try and suggest it.

Are you on autopilot ? a member of the ADL ? - just trolling ?

Book of Exodus says the hebrew people are God's chosen people, and from them shall come the Messiah, or redeemer of the world - so its not like i came up with the phrase (or St Augustine as you wrongly state) - although my post wasnt (quite obviously to any adults reading) serious. I was taking this piss out of your high and mighty stance and your desperation to have a fight on your terms, rather than any of the terms actually stated by any posters.


Stop trolling and debate like an adult.

I’m not digging anything up. This anti Semitic stuff is so bountiful and has always been. Its all around everyday.

The point about St Augustine was he had a go at the Jews for being the chosen people 1500 years before you did.

NO.
In the context of *this thread* *YOU* are the only person dragging up anti-semitic stuff. And youre trying to shut down debate on the basis of stuff that *hasnt* been said by anyone except you.

Stop changing your arguments or focus everytime you're called on it.

And the bible talked about the "chosen people" long before you claim st augustine did.

So not only are you making stuff up, even that is wrong.
And of course you're now claiming that *I* have had a go at the jewish people for claiming to the the chosen people (i think god(or insert made up deity here) will forgive my parody). Quite apart from the fact that they're only *in israel and lay claim to its lands* /because/ of this biblical claim.

Still why let the facts get in the way when you can just lazily smear people eh ?

[stumuzz]

I’m not dragging up anything. Just elucidating the fact that anti semitism has been around for a very long time and changes it’s colours frequently.

I’m not changing my arguments. I will restate them. Anti semitism has been around for thousands of years and a disproportionate amount of hate and bile is directed towards israel which is not directed at murderous genocidal regimes. These two points are not difficult to understand, but do make people angry when confronted with them.

If you say St Augustine did not make anti Semitic statements in 415AD, fine. He didn’t.

And gug, please take a look back at the thread. YOU brought up the chosen people. It has been a facet of anti semitism for about 1500 years.

[caspian]

a disproportionate amount of hate and bile is directed towards israel which is not directed at murderous genocidal regimes.

Well this is completely incorrect for a start, and that fact that you are wrong in this statement means that your argument completely unravels.

Many people who criticise Israel's actions toward the Palestinians have also criticised other nasty regimes, including China, Burma, Saddam Hussein's Iraq, apartheid South Africa, and the USA. Perhaps you've also forgotten the ~1 million people who protested about the UK joining in the America's murderous invasion of Iraq?

So don't start arguing that we're picking our fights selectively out of some kind of repressed anti-semiticism because you just make yourself look like an hysterical loon. Criticism of Israel should not be off-limits, and your attempts to smear people with the anti-semite tag is stupid and unhelpful. Go back to playing with your Mark Regev dollies and let the grown-ups debate in peace.

[biffvernon]

What is your problem, Stumuzz?

I suggest reading this article from the Independant would be more constructive than continuing to discuss the silly idea that this affair has anything to do with anti-Semitism.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 92517.html

And why is Israel so afraid of truth? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 250354.stm

[Kentucky Fried Panda]

[Kentucky Fried Panda]

[2 As and a B]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 92517.html

And why is Israel so afraid of truth? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 250354.stm

Thanks for posting Biff. The deceit and hypocrisy vociferously proclaimed by the Israeli government is staggering.

[gug]

I’m not dragging up anything. Just elucidating the fact that anti semitism has been around for a very long time and changes it’s colours frequently.

I’m not changing my arguments. I will restate them. Anti semitism has been around for thousands of years and a disproportionate amount of hate and bile is directed towards israel which is not directed at murderous genocidal regimes. These two points are not difficult to understand, but do make people angry when confronted with them.

If you say St Augustine did not make anti Semitic statements in 415AD, fine. He didn’t.

And gug, please take a look back at the thread. YOU brought up the chosen people. It has been a facet of anti semitism for about 1500 years.

Only in response to the boll*cks you were spouting.
Thanks for telling us that anti-semitism existed, we really had no idea (sigh).
You were just doing a reverse "godwin" and trying to shut down debate.

It has been a facet of anti semitism for about 1500 years.

for F sake... No, its been a facet of "jewishness" for much much longer.
Unless you think that the bible or the torah was written in 1510.

Biblical links between jews and israel are regurgitated by zionists organisations all the time (certainly on the zionist-israel.com website.

I'm sure its not terribly wise to quote wikipedia but...

According to the Torah, Israel's character as the chosen people is unconditional as it says in Deuteronomy 14:2, "For you are a holy people to YHWH your God, and God has chosen you to be his treasured people from all the nations that are on the face of the earth."

Although the Torah also says, "Now therefore, if you will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then you shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people," God promises that He will never exchange His people with any other

So go argue with the jews about how they dont believe they're chosen people if you want stumuzz, just dont bother me about this, although to be honest, i only starting the chosen people bit to take the piss out of your high and mighty defence of israel despite the available evidence.


Anyway, it would be wrong of me to NOT include the list of prohibited items that israel has produced because access to all of these things are obviously a real risk to poor old nuclear powered, superpower backed israel .


Remeber, if you cant just come out and shoot arabs without the rest of the world getting a bit haughty you can just kill them by a thousand cuts.

I mean... seeds, cattle, goats, chicks, fishing rods and nets ? - ok, dont want them being able to grow food in their open prison.


heaven forbid hamas (as odious as they are, democratically elected - got a problem with that? go speak to Jerry Adams and Martin McGuinness) - ever get hold of paper and pencils !

Israels action is nothing short of group punishment.
(but of course, dont say that, its anti-semitic (sigh) )


(and i'm not even an "activist" on this issue - just a human bored by the bullshit)

The (partial) 'list' of prohibited "matériel':
sage
cardamom
cumin
coriander
ginger
jam
halva
vinegar
nutmeg
chocolate
fruit preserves
seeds and nuts
biscuits and sweets
potato chips
gas for soft drinks
dried fruit
fresh meat
plaster
tar
wood for construction
cement
iron
glucose
industrial salt
plastic/glass/metal containers
industrial margarine
tarpaulin sheets for huts
fabric (for clothing)
flavor and smell enhancers
fishing rods
various fishing nets
buoys
ropes for fishing
nylon nets for greenhouses
spare parts for tractors
dairies for cowsheds
irrigation pipe systems
ropes to tie greenhouses
planters for saplings
heaters for chicken farms
musical instruments
size A4 paper
writing implements
notebooks
newspapers
toys
razors
sewing machines and spare parts
heaters
horses
donkeys
goats
cattle
chicks



Edit: "partial" list

[2 As and a B]

Thanks for the (partial) list of prohibited goods gug. Where did you get it from?

Seeing the foodstuffs listed there I can only think that their banning can only be part of Israel's collective punishment of the people of Gaza and continuing effort to destroy Palestinian identity, culture and very existence of those sub-humans.

A quick Google produced this:

Palestinian flavour

Even though food flavour is unified throughout Pal­es­tine, the Palestinian cuisine can be divided roughly into four re­gions, according to the variations in taste: the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, the Galilee and the area known as the Tri­an­gle. Variations are evident in the intensity of the taste of food and not in the reci­pes themselves.

The difference between what Palestinians cook in the villages and in the cities is only in the in­gre­di­ents used, and not in the taste. For ex­am­ple burgul is more popu­lar amongst peasants whereas rice is more popular in the cities.

Palestinian food is char­ac­terized by its sour yet sweet taste. It derives its sourness from the use of yo­gurt and its byproducts, lemon, pome­granate, un­ripe grapes, to­ma­toes and tama­rind. The sweetness comes mainly from dried fruits such as rai­sins, dates, apricots, figs, and mo­lasses, which are also sweet and sour in taste.

Palestinians also mix bitter and sour tastes. The most deli­cate taste of bitterness is ex­pe­ri­enced with virgin olive oil in dressings and sauces. Olive oil blends well with sour juices and contributes a great deal to the ba­sic Palestinian taste.

Tahina, a paste derived from ground sesame seeds, is also a typical Palestinian flavour. It is al­ways present on the Palestinian ta­ble in the form of dips, spreads, salads or sauces, and even in sweets. The degree of seed roasting de­ter­mines the taste of the tahina; this is a source of taste variation in different regions.

Yogurt is always present on the table as well, ei­ther fresh on its own, in salads and drinks or of­ten as a hot sauce. It is also used for the preparation of basic foods such as kishik, which is burgul soaked in fer­mented yo­gurt and then dried. Jmeed, too, the main in­gre­dient for Munsaf sauce is made from dried butter­milk.

The spices most used in Palestinian cooking are cumin, car­da­mom, cinna­mon, nutmeg, all­spice, black pepper and summac. Herbs are usually con­sumed fresh. In the past they were picked when fami­lies went on pic­nics (Shatha), or from the gar­den. Thyme, co­ri­an­der, pars­ley, rose­mary and mint are the most popu­lar herbs. They are used in stuffings, salad dressings and in sauces.

Dressings are made of any sour liq­uid, usually lemon juice mixed with ol­ive oil, with a com­bi­nation of gar­lic, finely chopped spring on­ion, fresh herbs and summac. There are five basic sauces in Pal­es­tinian cooking: yogurt, tahina, to­mato, veg­eta­ble and brown sauce. A whole variation of each is achieved by using different aux­il­iary materials such as herbs and spices.

http://www.chefsufian.co.uk/articles/Pa ... avour.html

Didn't find any details of local Gaza preferences or favourite dishes. I can probably find out (eventually) via someone I know.

[gug]

Thanks for the (partial) list of prohibited goods gug. Where did you get it from?

Its repeated all over the net - although to be honest, I didnt get it from its original source - but it appears that the israelis wont produce a solid list and it seems to change fairly regularly.

Just google "gaza list of prohibited material" for several sources.

Heres a link to what appears to be a jewish website talking about the allowed items..

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/ne ... a-1.276147

The number of items changes according to what is determined by The Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories. COGAT has refused the PA representative's request for an updated list of the items permitted into Gaza in writing, and passes the information only via the telephone.

So they pretty much make up the rules as they go along i guess.

Interesting that they say they allow "food" but...

Pasta, which had been forbidden in the past, is now allowed, after U.S. Senator John Kerry expressed his astonishment at the ban during a visit to Gaza in February. But tea, coffee, sausages, semolina, milk products in large packages and most baking products are forbidden. So are industrial commodities for manufacturing food products, chocolate, sesame seeds and nuts.

[PS_RalphW]

May I politely suggest we move this thread to 'off topic' ?

[RenewableCandy]

Seconded.