What can we do to change the minds of decision makers and people in general to actually do something about preparing for the forthcoming economic/energy crises (the ones after this one!)?
This question would make sense if environment had never been saved before....... This question would make sense if environment had never been saved in the past.
People are asking a question whose answer has been known for millions of years.
You save environment the way it was saved for millions of years.
There is only one way to save environment.......Destroy less.
Animals saved environment by destroying it only for food.
Hunter_Gatherer Society saved environment by destroying it only for food.
Agrarian Society saved environment by destroying it only for food, clothing and shelter.
When we had Hunter Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society, there were only about a 100 million people on the planet - much less than the people in your own country today.
Now we have over 7000 million people - even if we stopped producing "thousands of consumer goods and services" your proposal doesn't make sense, how can we save the environment with this number of people?
If you want your proposals taken seriously you have to address how we get from where we are today, to where you say we have to get to.
Otherwise, you will not be taken seriously.
Population does not destroy environment.....It is lifestyle that destroys environment. The combined population of animal species [whose size and weight were equivalent to or greater than humans] was much greater than the present human population of 7 billion.....Yet they did not destroy environment for millions of years.
If we stop Industrial Activity for production of "thousands of consumer goods and services" we can save the [remaining] environment right now.
If we manage to do this we can save all the environment that is being destroyed by Energy Generation Industry, Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Construction Industry, Oil Drilling Industry, Oil Refining Industry, Transportation Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Network, Millions of kilometers of Air Routes and Shipping Lanes.
If we manage to do this we can save all the environment that is being destroyed by Industrial Activity that is producing Trillions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste that has contaminated and poisoned the entire planet.
A Hunter_Gatherer Society of 7 billion would have destroyed very little environment...... because it would have destroyed environment only for food.
An Agrarian Society of 7 billion would have destroyed very little environment [compared to an Industrial Society of 7 billion]...... because it would have destroyed environment only for food, clothing and shelter.
Industrial Society of 7 billion has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems in just 250 years after industrialization because it destroyed environment for "Thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.
A Hunter_Gatherer Society would have never reached a population of 7 billion.
An Agrarian Society would have never reached a population of 7 billion.
For millions of years the list of things that destroyed environment never exceeded food, clothing and shelter.
Food, clothing and shelter......these are the maximum number of things this planet can provide to humans.
A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been only a small fraction of 7 billion today.
If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.
At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.
We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated or minimized.
We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.......The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
Last edited by sushil_yadav on 03 May 2012, 03:38, edited 4 times in total.
In the context of Discussion, Debate and Argument.
In America people have been debating the issue of abortion for several decades.
What has been the result of all the discussion, debate and argument???
Half of the country is against abortion.......Half of the country is for abortion.
Mass abortions and Endless Discussion........both are consequences of Industrialization.
Industrialization is the cause of Mass abortions ........Without industrialization mass abortions were impossible.
Industrialization is the cause of Endless Discussion, Debate and Argument.......Industrialization led to Printing Press, Radio, Television and Internet without which excessive discussion was impossible.
Industrialization first creates a problem and then people carry on with endless discussion, debate and argument.
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The same thing is happening with environment........Industrialization has led to environmental destruction and now people are engaging in endless discussion, debate and argument which once again is a consequence of industrialization.
sushil_yadav wrote:In the context of Discussion, Debate and Argument.
In America people have been debating the issue of abortion for several decades.
What has been the result of all the discussion, debate and argument???
Half of the country is against abortion.......Half of the country is for abortion.
Mass abortions and Endless Discussion........both are consequences of Industrialization.
Industrialization is the cause of Mass abortions ........Without industrialization mass abortions were impossible.
Industrialization is the cause of Endless Discussion, Debate and Argument.......Industrialization led to Printing Press, Radio, Television and Internet without which excessive discussion was impossible.
Industrialization first creates a problem and then people carry on with endless discussion, debate and argument.
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The same thing is happening with environment........Industrialization has led to environmental destruction and now people are engaging in endless discussion, debate and argument which once again is a consequence of industrialization.
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
People were having endless debates well before "industrialisation" (the printing press came before the "industrial revolution" as such, though counts as an early form of mass production I suppose). Many of these were probably just as useless. The technology just made it easier.
If it weren't for all the endless debates, quite possibly nothing would ever get done, it's in the nature of society to have so much inertia that matters need to keep being raised. Had it not been for, say Wilberforce constantly raising the matter in Parliament, maybe there would be no end to the transatlantic slave trade.
And in the context of abortion... well as far as the modernists are concerned, they won, and abortion is now a "woman's right to choose". They don't want anything more to do with it. (Trouble is when people go further and suggest it's necessary for population control, like some parts of china, and UndercoverElephant on this very board). I think there were ways of aborting foetuses before "industrialisation" too. And there is always the possibility of not doing so. Just as there is with much environmental damage, some of which could easily be ended without stopping "industrialisation".
This question would make sense if environment had never been saved before....... This question would make sense if environment had never been saved in the past.
People are asking a question whose answer has been known for millions of years.
You save environment the way it was saved for millions of years.
There is only one way to save environment.......Destroy less.
Animals saved environment by destroying it only for food.
Hunter_Gatherer Society saved environment by destroying it only for food.
Agrarian Society saved environment by destroying it only for food, clothing and shelter.
When we had Hunter Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society, there were only about a 100 million people on the planet - much less than the people in your own country today.
Now we have over 7000 million people - even if we stopped producing "thousands of consumer goods and services" your proposal doesn't make sense, how can we save the environment with this number of people?
If you want your proposals taken seriously you have to address how we get from where we are today, to where you say we have to get to.
Otherwise, you will not be taken seriously.
Population does not destroy environment.....It is lifestyle that destroys environment. The combined population of animal species [whose size and weight were equivalent to or greater than humans] was much greater than the present human population of 7 billion.....Yet they did not destroy environment for millions of years.
If we stop Industrial Activity for production of "thousands of consumer goods and services" we can save the [remaining] environment right now.
If we manage to do this we can save all the environment that is being destroyed by Energy Generation Industry, Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Construction Industry, Oil Drilling Industry, Oil Refining Industry, Transportation Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Network, Millions of kilometers of Air Routes and Shipping Lanes.
If we manage to do this we can save all the environment that is being destroyed by Industrial Activity that is producing Trillions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste that has contaminated and poisoned the entire planet.
A Hunter_Gatherer Society of 7 billion would have destroyed very little environment...... because it would have destroyed environment only for food.
An Agrarian Society of 7 billion would have destroyed very little environment [compared to an Industrial Society of 7 billion]...... because it would have destroyed environment only for food, clothing and shelter.
Industrial Society of 7 billion has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems in just 250 years after industrialization because it destroyed environment for "Thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.
A Hunter_Gatherer Society would have never reached a population of 7 billion.
An Agrarian Society would have never reached a population of 7 billion.
For millions of years the list of things that destroyed environment never exceeded food, clothing and shelter.
Food, clothing and shelter......these are the maximum number of things this planet can provide to humans.
A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been only a small fraction of 7 billion today.
If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.
At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.
We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated or minimized.
We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.......The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
Whilst I'd agree again that industrial society has made possible massive environmental destruction, and whilst we vastly overproduce far more than we need, I very much doubt you are going to restrict people to food, clothing and shelter (and why not medicine?) No society- and that probably includes your stone-age hunter gatherers- has completely restricted itself to these as far as I know, though "civilisation" certainly makes it easier. (By "civilisation" I mean a permanently settled, reasonably complex society).
And I wonder if "food, clothing and shelter" aren't some of the biggest culprits. Natural habitats are destroyed to produce farmland, farmland is taken over for new housing developments, and as for clothing... walk down your average British high street if you manage to get over here, and count the shops. Probably a good half of them sell clothing at least. Seems to be a pretty big industry, and there is no need for some to buy as much as they do- they have to have the latest fashions, new outfits for every party.
There were two major switch-overs in human history.........Hunter_Gatherer Stage to Agrarian Stage........And Agrarian Stage to Industrial Stage.
Hunter_Gatherer Society was least destructive.......Agrarian Society was hundreds/ thousands times more destructive.......Industrial Society is millions of times more destructive.
The first switchover may very well be excused but not the second one.......When man switched over from Hunter_Gatherer Stage to Agrarian Stage he was not aware of the small size of our planet and the limited resources it contained........But when man switched over from Agrarian Stage to Industrial Stage it was sheer lunacy of people who started and promoted Industrial Activity all over the world despite having a fair knowledge of the small size of planet and the limited natural resources.
This planet is just 40,000 km in circumference.......It is very small......It can sustain a Hunter_Gatherer Society or Agrarian Society...... Not an Industrial Society.
Hunter_Gatherer Society destroyed environment only for food.......Agrarian Society destroyed environment primarily for food, clothing and shelter........That is the limit on this planet......This planet cannot sustain an Industrial Society which destroys environment for "thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.
Industrial Activity for production of "thousands of consumer goods and services" must stop immediately.
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
Last edited by sushil_yadav on 09 Jul 2012, 02:15, edited 1 time in total.
sushil_yadav wrote:There were two major switch-overs in human history.........Hunter_Gatherer Stage to Agrarian Stage........And Agrarian Stage to Industrial Stage.
Hunter_Gatherer Society was least destructive.......Agrarian Society was hundreds/ thousands times more destructive.......Industrial Society is millions of times more destructive.
The first switchover may very well be excused but not the second one.......When man switched over from Hunter_Gatherer Stage to Agrarian Stage he was not aware of the small size of our planet and the limited resources it contained........But when man switched over from Agrarian Stage to Industrial Stage it was sheer lunacy of people who started and promoted Industrial Activity all over the world despite having a fair knowledge of the small size of planet and the limited natural resources.
This planet is just 40,000 km in circumference.......It is very small......It can sustain a Hunter_Gatherer Society or Agrarian Society...... Not an Industrial Society.
Hunter_Gatherer Society destroyed environment only for food.......Agrarian Society destroyed environment primarily for food, clothing and shelter........That is the limit on this planet......This planet cannot sustain an Industrial Society which destroys environment for "thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
Hunter gatherers were the least destructive, yes. But that was not directly because they were hunter gatherers. It was because, being hunter gatherers, their lifestyles and technologies meant they could not increase their numbers beyond a certain point. Their technologies limited the damage they could do by limiting their populations. Hunter gatherers could never have reached a global population of 7 billion. That's the point. Even so, they still did damage. What do you think happened to the Sabre toothed, tiger, the woolly mammoth or the Neanderthals?
As for agrarian man, he too did less damage than modern industrial man. However the damage wreaked was orders of magnitude greater than his hunter gatherer ancestors. The reason was because of their increased technology which allowed them to amass the first surpluses. Surpluses which, in turn, allowed them to construct complex civilisations that spread out over the globe. There are many documented records of how they utterly destroyed their environments, how their civilisations collapsed and how they then migrated out to new territories to repeat the process of destruction over and over again. Do you know what happened to the hanging gardens of Babylon?
And so here we now find ourselves, in the industrial age (or what little is left of it). The industrial use of hydrocarbons has allowed the level of complexity in our civilisation to move upwards yet another order of magnitude. This time, though, instead of limiting the damage we can do to local regions, we now can wreak devastation on the entire globe simultaneously. This time we have no where left to migrate to when it all finally collapses, as it will surely do.
The point I am making is that the level of destruction we wreak is not qualitatively different from the past depending on the lifestyles we lead,. It is only quantitatively different.
We have been destructive from the beginning. All that has happened is that we have become progressively "better" at it over time.
stevecook172001 wrote:
We have been destructive from the beginning. All that has happened is that we have become progressively "better" at it over time.
Well that may be true, but I think Sushil's point is that our industrial society - that we have created over the last couple of centuries - is destroying our minds and the environment.
And to be honest I think that is a very true conclusion / statement. I find it hard to disagree. It is quite an astounding conclusion, but having followed this thread from the start, I can formulate no other conclusion.
What remains to be done, is to question how we make wider society aware of this conclusion, to debate it, consider it and determine how as a society we move forward from here.
The moving forward part is where I have become disappointed with Sushil. Whilst he has to be congratulated in my opinion for boldly pointing out and making very clear his perspective, which I cannot disagree with, he has not been able to offer any solutions that address how we as a species can move forward from here. Maybe that will come in time?
As for me, well I find it an incredible dichotomy - the ultimate Catch 22 - our progress has created our demise. What a dilemma we face and how can we possibly turn the juggernaught of industrial progress around? It is almost impossible to imagine that we will and thus we WILL walk over the cliff.
We'll either succeed in implementing sushil_yadav's solution or not.
Whatever happens, I don't think it will be planned. We'll just bumble along creating all sorts of damaging problems. Which will lead to more problems and damage no doubt. Along the way, maybe some interesting and positive things will occur in response. Which will lead to...other things.
Until we produce a global society geared primarily for clothing, shelter, and food. Or not.
As long as we don't take down the entire planet, our demise will also be a solution of sorts.
I think there's a tendency to want everything perfect for the next 500 years. A way of thinking probably due to mind-destroying industrialisation.
And does it matter if the entire human species walks over the cliff, if I've been dead for the last 150 years? For me, the universe had ended the same instant I did. And for that Universe, what does earth-life matter anyway? Diddly-squat: less than the smallest flea having a heart-attack.
......................................................................................... Story of Pseudo Environmentalism in Industrial Society.
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A Serial Killer with endless supply of ammunition goes on the rampage in the city.....The Police are informed.....They arrive on the scene.....They do not try to stop or capture the shooter.....They do not try to kill or incapacitate the shooter.....They allow him to continue shooting......They give him full liberty to move around all over the city.
The Police focus on the victims of shooting.....They take them to Hospitals and try to save them with the help of best Technology / Health Care.....The Government sets up thousands of Organizations to do research on how the Whites can be saved, How the Blacks can be saved, How the Asians can be saved, How the Young can be saved, How the Elderly can be saved.....The Government gives Billions of Dollars of Grant to "Think Tanks" and NGO's to find out how the victims can be saved.....People of the city engage in Billions of pages of Discussion, Debate and Argument to find a solution to the problem.
This is not the story of the Mass Shooter.....This is the story of Environmentalism in Industrial Society.
Environment is being destroyed by Industrial Activity........Environmental Activists and Organizations are trying to save environment without stopping Industrial Activity
One group is trying to save Forests......The second group is trying to save Rivers......The third group is trying to save Oceans......The fourth group is trying to make the Air clean......The fifth group is trying to save Tigers and Elephants......The sixth group is trying to save Whales and Dolphins.
Height of Insanity and Abnormality.
People who are trying to save environment in Industrial Society without stopping all Industrial Activity deserve the Nobel Prize for Lunacy.
Why don't people realize the futility and absurdity of their efforts......It is impossible to save animals, trees, air, water and land without stopping all Industrial Activity.
What is the point in saving a few Dogs, Cats, Whales, Tigers and Elephants when Industrial Society is killing billions of animals in Industrial Slaughter Houses and billions of Wild Animals in Forests by destroying Forests with Industrial Activities like Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Construction Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Networks and ever expanding Towns and Cities.......Industrial Society is also killing billions of fish in the oceans with Industrial Fishing and through discharge of billions of tonnes of Industrial Waste into oceans which has made them poisonous, acidic, warmer and created oxygen-deprived dead zones in the oceans.
It is impossible to save Air, water and Land without stopping all Industrial Activity because Industrial Activity is killing them with trillions of tonnes of Metal waste, Plastic waste, Gaseous waste, Chemical waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.......Industrial Activity produces trillions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Waste and there are only three places on earth where all this waste can go....Air, water and Soil.....There is no fourth place on earth where this waste can go...... It is impossible for Rivers, Oceans, Atmosphere and Soil to be clean in Industrial Society.
This planet can only sustain a Hunter_Gatherer Society or an Agrarian Society......Not an Industrial Society.
All Environmentalism is Pseudo-Environmentalism in Industrial Society.......It is impossible to save environment in an Industrial Society.
People who pretend they are saving environment in Industrial Society are even more insane, abnormal and criminal than people who are destroying the environment.
It is impossible to save environment in Industrial Society because Industrialization itself is the cause of environmental destruction.........In a non-industrial society environmentalism was not even needed.......In the absence of Industrial Activity environment got saved automatically because only limited destruction of environment was possible without Industrial Machines.
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Environment has been destroyed by Industrial Activity........Trying to save environment without stopping Industrial Activity is like ..
Trying to save a victim of shooting by shooting him even more.
Trying to save a victim of stabbing by stabbing him even more.
Trying to save a victim of poisoning by giving him even more poison.
Height of Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality.......You cannot save environment by destroying more of it.
Industrial Society has been destroying Extra environment for 250 years........It has been destroying environment for "thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.
You cannot save a person after killing him.......You cannot save environment after it has been killed by Industrial Activity.
The entire Industrial Society deserves the Nobel Prize for Lunacy for pretending that environment is getting saved when the reality is that Industrial Society has been destroying extra environment after industrialization and has destroyed so much extra environment in 250 years that there is hardly any environment left to save.
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What is the Result of 50 years of Environmentalism/ Pseudo Environmentalism in Industrial Society???
Industrial Society has been killing millions of times more Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land than Pre-Industrial Society every day for several decades.
Industrial Society has been killing millions of acres of Forests with Industrial Activity every day for several decades.
Industrial Society has been killing Billions of Animals in Industrial Slaughter Houses every day for several decades.
Industrial Society has been killing millions of Wild Animals by destroying the Forests where they live with Industrial Activity every day for several decades.
Industrial Society has been killing Air, Water and Soil with billions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste every day for several decades.....Industrial Society has been killing Rivers, Oceans, Air/ Atmosphere and Soil/ Land with Billions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic waste, Gaseous waste, Chemical Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste every day for several decades.
Industrial Society has been killing Millions of Acres of Fertile Soil with Cement, Concrete and Asphalt every day for several decades.
All this Killing / Destruction was absent in Pre-Industrial Society without any Environmentalism.
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All Environmentalism in Industrial Society is Pseudo Environmentalism.
No environment is getting saved in Industrial Society.....Not an iota of environment is getting saved.
How can environment ever be saved in Industrial Society when Industrial Activity itself is the cause of environmental destruction....Environment can only be saved in a Non-Industrial Society.
Industrial Society has created hundreds of unnecessary / futile occupations to solve the problems created by Industrialization.....Environmental Activism is one of them.....If thousands of organizations and millions of activists are trying to save environment in Industrial Society it does not mean that environment is getting saved…..There have been three human societies on earth .....Hunter_Gatherer, Agrarian and Industrial.....In Hunter_Gatherer Society there was no Urban Population, entire population was engaged in searching for food.....In Agrarian Society less than 2% of population was Urban, Most of the population was engaged in producing food.....In Industrial Society 50% of world population is producing food for entire population , the remaining 50% population is Urban which has created hundreds of unnecessary occupations to keep itself occupied..... People would go crazy without work…. Environmentalism / Environmental Activism is one such profession [occupation]......[Other unnecessary and destructive professions in Industrial Society include Manufacturing and Marketing of thousands of consumer goods and services, Jobs in Tourism Industry, Entertainment Industry, Sports Industry, Military Industrial Complex and several other jobs]....No Environmentalism was needed in Hunter_Gatherer and Agrarian Societies because in the absence of Industrial Activity only limited destruction of environment was possible, so environment got saved automatically.
If billions of pages of environmental discussion is taking place in Industrial Society it does not mean that environment is getting saved......Endless Discussion, Debate and Argument is a Disease and Insanity of Industrial Society that invented the Printing Press, Radio, Television and Internet.....Animal Species and Hunter_Gatherer Society did not save environment through discussion.....They didn't even have a language for discussion…..Billions of pages of Discussion, Debate and Argument is another harmful waste of Industrial Society just like Billions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.
All Environmentalism in Industrial Society is Pseudo Environmentalism.
No environment is getting saved in Industrial Society.....Not an iota of environment is getting saved.
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If Urban Society stops all its supplies to Villages......Electricity, Oil, Machinery and Equipment, Villagers will survive forever.
If Villages stop all their supplies to Cities......Food Grains and Vegetables, Urban Population will die within a month.
[ Villagers need Electricity, Oil, Machinery and Equipment to produce food for the Urban Population , They would not need these things to produce food for themselves]
Urban Population is engaged in Unnecessary Work, Meaningless Work, Futile Work and Destructive Work which has led to destruction of most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems on earth.
For millions of years "Searching For Food" / "Producing Food" were the primary occupations of almost the entire human population in Hunter_Gatherer and Agrarian Society.
There is Zero chance of saving the little environment that is left without fixing the problem of "Urban Population".
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Animal Species had Zero Percent Urban Population.......Hunter_Gatherer Society had Zero Percent Urban Population.......Agrarian Society had less than Two Percent Urban Population.......All these societies sustained for millions of years collectively.
The current Industrial Society which has 50% Urban Population worldwide has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems in just 250 years after Industrial Revolution.......Industrial Activity has been promoted by Urban Population......Industrial Activity has been promoted by people who do not produce food.
This planet can sustain Animal Species.....It can sustain Hunter_Gatherer Human Society......It can sustain Agrarian Human Society......It cannot sustain Industrial Human Society.
This planet can only sustain food producing societies where almost the entire population is engaged in food production......It cannot sustain an Industrial Society where 50% of world population is growing food for entire population and the remaining 50% living in cities is promoting Industrial Activity.
Animals saved environment for millions of years because they destroyed it only for food.....Hunter_Gatherer Society saved environment because it destroyed environment only for food.....Agrarian Society saved environment because it destroyed environment only for food, clothing and shelter.
Industrial Society has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems because it destroyed environment for "Thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.
In the Animal Kingdom, Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society almost the entire population was engaged in "Searching for Food" / "Growing Food".
It is the Urban Population that is engaged in and promoting Industrial Activity ......Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Transportation Industry, Construction Industry, Recycling Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Millions of kilometers of Rail & Road network, Air Routes and Shipping Lanes…..They all destroy environment......All Industrial Activity must be stopped.
Food, clothing and shelter......These are the maximum number of things this planet can provide to humans......The only way to save the remaining environment is by reorganizing the entire population so that food production remains the only primary activity just like it was for millions of years before Industrialization.
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This planet cannot sustain an Industrial / Urban Society......The problem is not Capitalism, The problem is Industrialization / Urbanization.......The solution is not Communism or Socialism, The solution is Non-Industrial / Non-Urban Society.
Capitalism, Communism or Socialism does not matter at all........What matters is percentage of Urban Population......A Socialist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population will be as Harmful, Destructive and Evil as a Capitalist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population...... A Communist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population will be as Harmful, Destructive and Evil as a Capitalist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population.
Urban Population is responsible for consumerism.......Urban Population does not produce Food.....It produces thousands of Consumer Goods and Services.
Consumerism is directly proportional to Percentage of Urban Population.
Saving environment in Industrial Society is an impossibility......No Industrial Society can save environment.......Communist or Socialist Industrial Societies cannot be less destructive than Capitalist Industrial Societies.
There cannot be any sustainable Industrial Society........The fault does not lie in Capitalism.....The fault lies in Industrialization.....All Industrial Societies are the same.....All Industrial Societies are equally harmful, destructive and evil.
Destruction of environment is guaranteed in Industrial Society......The debate over Capitalism, Communism and Socialism in the context of Environmental Crisis is meaningless and absurd.
Industrialization , Urbanization and Consumerism go hand in hand......They happen together.
Today 50% of world population is Urban, living in cities...... 50% of world population is producing food for entire population and the remaining 50% population living in Cities is primarily engaged in production and marketing of thousands of consumer goods and services........Urban population is not producing food, it is producing consumer goods and services.......Even if the entire world is made Communist or Socialist it is not going to bring about any change in consumerism because the percentage of Urban Population will remain the same and it will continue producing and marketing thousands of consumer goods and services.
In America 90 - 95% of population is Urban......That is why consumerism is so rampant in the US......Even if America is made Communist or Socialist it is not going to reduce consumerism because the percentage of Urban Population would still remain the same.
In Europe 80 - 90% of population is Urban.
In China and India consumerism has risen exponentially with the increase in percentage of Urban Population.
Capitalism, Communism or Socialism does not matter.......What matters is Industrialization and Urbanization which results in Consumerism.
This planet cannot sustain Industrial Urban Population.......This planet cannot sustain a society that does not produce its own food.
This planet can sustain a Hunter_Gatherer Society or an Agrarian Society where almost the entire population is engaged in "searching for food" / producing food......This planet cannot sustain an Industrial Society where 50% of population is producing food for entire population and the remaining 50% population is producing thousands of consumer goods and services.
Sushil, your message has been received loud and clear. I don't think you need to make the points you have already made again.
I have asked previously how we can change from our current situation to a non-industrial society. You have failed to answer that question.
Surely you can see that the next logical step in your attempt to solve the global problem of industrialisation, is to concentrate your efforts on helping people to understand how we can change from our current paradigm to the paradigm of non-industrialism?
If you can't do that, your message (which I can't really disagree with) will achieve nothing.
I look forward to you being able to take that next step.
I can only point out the solution....I cannot implement the solution.
One person cannot implement the solution when billions of people are creating the problem.
I can only make efforts to spread awareness about the problem and the solution [which I have been doing for many years].
The solution has been known for millions of years.
The solution of the past is also the solution of the present.
We save environment the way it was saved for millions of years .......For millions of years the list of things that destroyed environment never exceeded food, clothing and shelter.
Animal species destroyed environment only for food.
Hunter_Gatherer Society destroyed environment only for food.
Agrarian Society destroyed environment only for food, clothing and shelter.
Industrial Society has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems in just 250 years because it destroyed environment for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.
This list needs to be pruned / minimized.
We cannot save environment by destroying more of it.
Production of thousands of consumer goods and services must stop immediately.
A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.
If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.
At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.
We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated or minimized.
The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.
Last edited by sushil_yadav on 19 Sep 2012, 06:40, edited 2 times in total.
A person is being shot 100 times......Some people are supposed to save the victim.....They do nothing till 99 bullets have hit the victim.....When the last bullet is about to be fired they rush to save the victim, who is already dead by then.
Industrial Activity has been destroying Biodiversity and Ecosystems for 250 years.....Industrial Society should not have been started in the first place.....Once it came into existence its harmful impact on environment should have alerted people and they should have tried to stop Industrial Activity in the early stages.....If people had tried to stop Industrial Activity 50 years or even 100 years after it began, environment could have been saved because most of the environmental destruction has taken place in the last 50 - 100 years when the rate of Industrialization and Consumerism rose exponentially.....Trying to save environment after 250 years of Industrial Activity is like trying to revive a dead man.....There is hardly any environment left to save.
If we want to save the little environment that is still left on earth we will have to stop Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately.......Industrial Activity will have to be limited to food, clothing and shelter.......And even in these three fields production and consumption will have to be kept to the minimum......The entire society will have to be reorganized / rearranged for this to happen.
sushil_yadav wrote:The entire society will have to be reorganized / rearranged for this to happen.
Now you are starting to say what has to be done.
So how do you think we can reorganise society to achieve the objective of non-industrial society?
Where do we start? What do we do first? How do we do it with 7 billion people on the planet? Should we start at the country level? How do we start to make the changes in say, India? The changes must be practical or else they won't be done.
It is not enough to simply highlight the problem. Of course you can't implement the solution, but you CAN help people to know what we have to do to save the rest of the environment. In fact, you MUST.
