EU membership referendum debate thread

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 23 Apr 2016, 11:48

So Obama's argument is that if the UK leaves the EU it won't have a trade agreement with the USA until a form of TTIP is in place with the EU and USA. This is to contradict the argument of some of those arguing to leave that the UK could have a trade agreement with the USA.

Your argument for leaving is the complete opposite viz that we won't have a trade agreement with the USA and additionally that one negotiated by a conservative government will be less likely to satisfy corporate interested than one negotiated by the EU and accountable to the EU parliament.

Fantasy worlds are interesting places.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 23 Apr 2016, 11:54

And your advice to us instead is to join you and insert our tongues up the arsehole of the establishment, and just accept what Obama is instructing us to do.

Swallow it down, John. Yum, yum.

If Obama and his corporate cronies want the UK to stay in the EU because of TTIP then the only sensible thing to do is vote to leave. This is not a fantasy. As normal, you are simply posting pro-establishment propaganda.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 23 Apr 2016, 12:00

Some people want to leave because we can have a trade agreement with the USA. Some people want to leave to avoid having a trade agreement with the USA.

They cannot all be right. (apart from in a fantasy world).

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 23 Apr 2016, 13:22

johnhemming2 wrote:Some people want to leave because we can have a trade agreement with the USA. Some people want to leave to avoid having a trade agreement with the USA.

They cannot all be right. (apart from in a fantasy world).

Your post is misleading, as usual. "A trade agreement"?

The question is about TTIP. A specific trade agreement that is being negotiated between the US and the EU. By leaving the EU we automatically extricate ourselves from those negotiations, over which we have almost no control. Obama himself has made it clear that this is the case by warning that "the UK will end up at the back of the queue for a trade agreement."

GOOD. If the agreement in question is TTIP, then I'd rather we are not in the queue at all.

Obama's threat only makes sense if you assume all trade agreements are worth having. TTIP is a stitch up. We are absolutely better off with no trade agreement whatsoever with the US.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 23 Apr 2016, 14:05

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_aud ... s/36117058

Boris Johnson wrote: 73% of our non-EU trade occurs under no trade agreement at all.

So, why do we need a trade agreement with the US?

fuzzy · Post by **fuzzy** » 23 Apr 2016, 16:13

So that the US medical industry can sue the NHS.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 24 Apr 2016, 10:54

https://youtu.be/2RBlruAM3TM

Looks in short at the different proposals from the Leave campaign (It is a remain video).

AutomaticEarth · Post by **AutomaticEarth** » 24 Apr 2016, 14:48

Quite interesting to see America saying we are 'the back of the queue'. Americans say 'back of the line'. Sounds like Cameron putting words into Obama's mouth....

AutomaticEarth · Post by **AutomaticEarth** » 24 Apr 2016, 14:51

Sorry, should have said:

'Quite interesting to see Obama saying we are 'the back of the queue'. Americans say 'back of the line'. Sounds like Cameron putting words into Obama's mouth....

Posted the correction at the request of my American friends.......

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 25 Apr 2016, 15:03

Timely reminder of where we are at when it comes to 'democracy'.

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2016- ... nipulators

As far as I can tell on the Brexit vote, public opinion is srunning about 50-50 overall (latest yougov poll) but it is impossible to know how it will play out on the day.

Facebook and Google have far too much power. We would never know if they chose to wield it,

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 25 Apr 2016, 15:19

Most good guys and some bad guys want to remain; some bad guys want to leave. Be like the good guys. #EU

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 25 Apr 2016, 16:39

PS_RalphW wrote:Timely reminder of where we are at when it comes to 'democracy'.

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2016- ... nipulators

As far as I can tell on the Brexit vote, public opinion is srunning about 50-50 overall (latest yougov poll) but it is impossible to know how it will play out on the day.

Facebook and Google have far too much power. We would never know if they chose to wield it,

Yes. I was watching a TV prog about the Irish Easter Rising last night. The majority were against it, and the participants jeered in the streets afterward. But a couple of years later, the majority view in Ireland changed completely. Admittedly after the leaders were executed, but still. A rubbish example probably, but people imitate other people and don't realise how much of their opinion is due to others.

I recommend the book The Meme Machine.

Here's a link how the CIA perhaps changed feminism.
http://www.rense.com/general21/hw.htm

If any one thing can cause a Brexit, it'll be Borris simply as he's just so popular.

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 25 Apr 2016, 16:45

biffvernon wrote:Most good guys and some bad guys want to remain; some bad guys want to leave. Be like the good guys. #EU

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 25 Apr 2016, 17:19

biffvernon wrote:Most good guys and some bad guys want to remain; some bad guys want to leave. Be like the good guys. #EU

Sounds like a bit of a subjective view to me, and it doesn't look good when people start making statements, appearing claiming to be fact, which are just founded on a personal agenda. Or did you mean something else?

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 25 Apr 2016, 17:31

As that good guy said

Most good guys and some bad guys want to leave; some bad guys want to stay. Be like the good guys!