Revolution, anyone? :D

[newmac]

I get you now.

Paradoxically, having the ability to see that people are naturally sociable and not selfish, actually makes the individual enjoy things so much more as a) you see great things which others miss, b) others react to it well c) a more positive outlook is good for the mind and the body.

By paradoxically what I actually mean is that most of those benefits tie in very well with why being sociableness is part of our genetic makeup.

One of my favourite ways to explain to people how being sociable is innate and natural and not selfishness is to ask where their great speed, claws, hair and canines are, tools required for a lonely existence. We have the bodily forms and functions to coexist in groups, it would be a bit incongruous if our minds had taken a different evolutionary path.

Ah, the great forgotten concept of mutual aid....

[XENG]

I've long been a beleiver that selfishness along with most other things is not innate in humans.
I also beleive that current economics is effectively a zero sum game.

The amazing spectacle that is modern life can be seen from the perspective of the evolutionary game type scenarios and the theory of memes that Dawkins talks about in The Selfish Gene.
That is that selfishness and altruism are memes and that the selfish meme, with encouragement (brainwashing, conditioning, advertisment etc) from TPTB is dominant at the moment.





I.e. in life right now we win by being selfish and defecting and our neighbour loses.

In the future, with less energy the situation will have changed, the altruism meme will spread once again because we will have to cooperate to survive and hence we all win.
That doesnt stop you cooperating right now of course.

[skeptik]

rather than being nice ppl asking for our govs to be realist, why not smashing them?
if the history train is on the wrong tracks, someone has to stop it, eh?

After you then.

But I think I'll stay home and have a nice cup of tea and watch you getting machine gunned down on the ten oclock news. I don't really want any of that revoltumption stuff in my street.

All that shooting and blood and broken windows. Makes a terrible mess of the carpet....and I'll be getting punctured tyres on my bike for weeks!

[skeptik]

rather than being nice ppl asking for our govs to be realist, why not smashing them?
if the history train is on the wrong tracks, someone has to stop it, eh?

After you then.

But I think I'll stay home and have a nice cup of tea and watch you getting machine gunned down on the ten oclock news. I don't really want any of that revoltumption stuff in my street.

All that shooting and blood and broken windows. Makes a terrible mess of the carpet....and I'll be getting punctured tyres on my bike for weeks!

[skeptik]

rather than being nice ppl asking for our govs to be realist, why not smashing them?
if the history train is on the wrong tracks, someone has to stop it, eh?

After you then.

But I think I'll stay home and have a nice cup of tea and watch you getting machine gunned down on the ten oclock news. I don't really want any of that revoltumption stuff in my street.

All that shooting and blood and broken windows. Makes a terrible mess of the carpet....and I'll be getting punctured tyres on my bike for weeks!

[skeptik]

rather than being nice ppl asking for our govs to be realist, why not smashing them?
if the history train is on the wrong tracks, someone has to stop it, eh?

After you then.

But I think I'll stay home and have a nice cup of tea and watch you getting machine gunned down on the ten oclock news. I don't really want any of that revoltumption stuff in my street.

All that shooting and blood and broken windows. Makes a terrible mess of the carpet....and I'll be getting punctured tyres on my bike for weeks!

[Totally_Baffled]

Skeptik are you trying to get your post count up !?

[Bandidoz]

The other dynamic with this is that a "Win/Lose" outcome usually only holds for the short term; in the long run it inevitably leads to "Lose/Lose".

If the number of people that one interacts with reduces, then the number of interactions between a given set of people is likely to increase, meaning the chance of Win-Lose leading to Lose-Lose increases. So the only winning move becomes to pursue Win-Win.

[isenhand]

The other dynamic with this is that a "Win/Lose" outcome usually only holds for the short term; in the long run it inevitably leads to "Lose/Lose".

And how long will it take for people to realise that?

[Pippa]

You get solar panels and a wind turbine because you want to do the right thing and look after the planet. To a free-market economist, this would not appear to be 'useful'.

.

Are you sure that doing the right thing for the planet is the primary reason most people are getting wind turbines and solar panels? I'm not. I think most people want electricity first and foremost. Maybe as more people get to believe in resource depletion and peak oil the mad scramble to "go green" is going to lead to yet another peak, peak solar panels and wind turbines. Maybe economists will see the benefits of saving the planet (after all it just happens to be us humans latest cause/craze) and also enjoy seeing traditional economic models repeat themselves (however short term the "game" happens to last).

[Bandidoz]

And how long will it take for people to realise that?

Well it took me about 10 or 15 minutes on a management training course!

[newmac]

It's not a case of realising....it's a case of stopping not realising if you get what I mean, or get what we have been trying to explain above.

Evolution has mean't that the top left scenario is the dominate characteristics, it is only our current environment that moves us into the other three.

Remove/change this society and the nasty serum stops....well I hope so anyway.....and we are free to be human again.

[rushdy]

Skeptik are you trying to get your post count up !?

Quad damage!

[Andy Hunt]

Are you sure that doing the right thing for the planet is the primary reason most people are getting wind turbines and solar panels? I'm not. I think most people want electricity first and foremost. Maybe as more people get to believe in resource depletion and peak oil the mad scramble to "go green" is going to lead to yet another peak, peak solar panels and wind turbines. Maybe economists will see the benefits of saving the planet (after all it just happens to be us humans latest cause/craze) and also enjoy seeing traditional economic models repeat themselves (however short term the "game" happens to last).

Yes - absolutely. It is probably only a very few people who have done it purely to 'save the planet'. But paradoxically, it will have been those people who ended up getting their kit fairly cheap in the end.

As you say, when the stampede of self-interest for renewable energy begins, the shortages of polysilicon etc (already happening) will mean that maybe not everyone can have it and that basically those people who can afford the high prices will be able to get it.

The disadvantaged may end up being further disadvantaged. But at least some of those people will be people who could have afforded it in the first place whilst it was still cheap - if they had been that way inclined.

I think the incentive for people to club together to get community renewables e.g. community wind turbines, wood chip CHP etc, will only strengthen because individual solutions may not be individually affordable. According to free market principles, this is simply encouraging efficient use of the available limited resource.

But those who got in first because of their moral stance on climate change - before energy prices really started going up - will have the luxury of personal renewable energy. Ironic that the poorest people, living in turn-of-the-century terraced houses with chimneys, could end up with the luxury of a real log fire, whilst people in 1980s detached homes, with no chimney, may have to put up with the slightly less luxurious heat pump technology in the end.

Amazing how Peak Oil kind of turns the world on its head!

[skeptik]

Skeptik are you trying to get your post count up !?

Whoops! Missed that one.

Sometimes I get no feedback from the forum that a post has been accepted, so push the button again. Then generally I go in and just check to see whats happened. If theres a multiple post, as there is sometimes, I then delete the extras. Must have been in a hurry there..