Consumerism "Greened up"

What can we do to change the minds of decision makers and people in general to actually do something about preparing for the forthcoming economic/energy crises (the ones after this one!)?

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skeptik
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Post by skeptik »

MacG wrote:
isenhand wrote:The one proposed is the highest standard of living for the longest time possible. So good are produced to meet peoples needs. They would also need to be produce to minimise waste and energy in production. You should be able to run such a system so there is more than enough good, which effectively makes all the goods valueless and distributed free to all the citizens.
Sounds a little like Kurtzweil's "singularity".
Sounds like idealistic nonsense to me.

As I remember it Kurzweils singularity occurs when Artifical Intelligence and the technologies it produces enters into apositive feedback loop and accellerates beyond the ability of human beings to understand what is going on. From that point all technological advance looks , even to the most intelligent human, like magic, to paraphrase one of Arthur C. Clarkes aphorisms.
peaky

Post by peaky »

Nellie wrote:The only way to implement behaviour change is through self-interest or regulation. It's that simple.
Well, I think the only lasting solution is by realising that your interest is my self-interest. Saying it the way you have makes it sounds like I can either grab everything for me or be regulated and I don't see those as the only choices we have. If we're to surive in a meaningful way then we have to move beyond that sort of thinking as a species and realise the reality of our interdependence.
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Keela
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Post by Keela »

Peaky thanks for bumping this thread to the top. It seems Nellie only made two posts.... but they were good ones. Real food for thought.

Sal
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Potemkin Villager
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Post by Potemkin Villager »

Yes I am very glad to see this one peaking again
the issues raised are very pertinent and need a good airing.

Roger
Overconfidence, not just expert overconfidence but general overconfidence,
is one of the most common illusions we experience. Stan Robinson
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Pippa
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Post by Pippa »

Sadly, Nellie's second post said it all.

Yes, I agree with the whole carbon and life cycle reality.

I am sure we can all agree with it but those of us who continue to post don't want to agree with the "hands up, I surrender" mentality that pervades. After having thought it important enough to post such an eloquent essay I think it's more than slightly sad to find that the person behind the post advocates doing "whatever :x ".


Go down without a fight, um..... not really in my nature. After reading all that good stuff about stuff it's rather more than slightly dissapointing to read on the next post that the solution is to please yourself, end of.

Everyone to their own. Of course, I do realise that by far the easiest option is wallow in my own premature knowledge and self indulge (I'm pretty good at that anyway).

Think I might send a PM and see what she's up to these days..... :D
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Post by Nellie »

I think I've been misinterpreted. I said :
The only way to implement behaviour change is through self-interest or regulation. It's that simple.
What I meant was that the way to motivate people to change is to either foist/force it upon them OR garner their natural self-interest in order to bring about the change. The third way, i.e. appeal to their higher-selves with the logic that we are all interdependent, does not go down well with the reptilian brain, and will not bring about change quickly enough. Yes - ideally, we would do that. But then ideally we wouldn't have wars over whose god is better or any of the other permanent conflicts.

In other words, whilst I like to indulge in quite a lot of idealism myself, I don't see other people doing likewise, and therefore a more pragmatic approach is required. This seems obvious to me in a situation where "green issues" and the health of the planet have been sidelined as some sort of hippyesque freak show for the last 30 years, and no one was really listening or acting because it didn't seem to be mainstream, important or to apply to them.

Let me give you an example. Let's say that part of the solution is to get everyone who lives within 10 miles of their work place to cycle or walk to work, instead of taking their cars. How do we motivate people to do this?

Now, unless everyone in Britain has been in a coma or on a news blackout for the past 2 years, then most people should already understand that measures like this need to occur. BUT, for most people, they don't see it as applying to them, something they can control or something they want to change. And, we're battling against the fact that even though the rational mind knows that fossil fuel use has got to be decreased/stopped, the irrational mind (which likes instant gratification), just wants its own needs met now. Some people will change their behaviour through some kind of altruism; most will not. So the challenge is how to get people to change their behaviour?

We could sit around waiting for the light to dawn on the entire human population that we're all interdependent and have to cooperate with each other to save our own necks, or we can give people a good enough REASON or MOTIVATION to change. In essence, we harness the power of psychology.

So either we make the required change more appealing than the old way of doing things (thus harnessing everyone's self-interest) OR we force them to change through legislation.

On the particular point of cycling or walking, my self-interest is harnessed by the prospect of getting fit, losing weight, having no transport costs, no parking problems, getting places with less aggravation than in a car or on a bus, and being able to have a few drinks without worrying about it. Therefore I can easily cooperate with any policies to get people out of their cars for the normal day to day routine.

However, cycling is not without its dangers and that is bound to put a few people off. And although people like Transport for London seem to be making some effort to get people onto their bikes, I'm not sure what central Government is doing about it. And ultimately, a large proportion of people will just never find any personal reason or motivation for walking or cycling.

If cycling and walking are the answer, but people won't do it of their own free will - what then? The next step is to use legislation and regulation.

And that's all I'm saying in respect of "self-interest".

At a more philosophical level, I do think it's entirely possible that we'll wipe ourselves out. This doesn't mean that we have to give up the "fight", but we may have to accept that it's already too late, or that there isn't enough that anyone can do to bring things back into balance.

If anyone saw Newsnight last week with "Ethical man", you'll have discovered that even though he changed pretty much everything in his life, he was still only able to reduce his carbon emissions by 35%. Apparently we need to reduce by 70%. So, I can only imagine that we will all have to live VERY differently (I tend to envisage some kind of neo-saxon village connected to the internet!) OR we are going to wipe ourselves out. We've only been around for about 100,000 years, which is a couple of seconds in geological time, and yet we've managed to over-multiply and use up millions of years worth of carbon deposits in a nano-second. Historically, species have come and gone - apparently 90% of all species that ever existed are now extinct. So, why wouldn't we come and go?

And sometimes when I'm feeling especially fatalistic, I just think "sod it - enjoy your life whilst you can, and stop worrying about things that you have virtually no control over and which may never even happen". That doesn't mean give up campaigning etc. It just means enjoy whatever you're doing whilst you're doing it. Don't waste your life doing things for the sake of it or to avoid things - go after things that you really want and care about. Seize the day.

Not sure if any of that is really getting my point across or intelligible, but at least I tried!

Nellie
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

The task of reducing our footprint on the world is a mammoth one and could be very daunting if we try to do it all at once. I do know that there is not much time left but if we engender a hopeless attitude people will do nothing. If we engender a positive attitude, people will do things, slowly at first but at a quicker and quicker rate. At an exponential rate, which is what got us here in the first place. Hopefully it will get us out again.

So, we have a mammoth task confronting us.

How do you eat a mammoth? One bite at a time!

How do you eat a mammoth more quickly? Get some people to help you.

How do you eat it even quicker? Get all your helpers to get someone to help them and so on ...... Exponential.

Be positive and remain positive.
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

Harumph - that's how mammoths got to be extinct.
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Keela
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Post by Keela »

Nellie your posts make excellent sense to me. Thankyou for taking the time.

Sal
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