Labour Party/government Watch

What can we do to change the minds of decision makers and people in general to actually do something about preparing for the forthcoming economic/energy crises (the ones after this one!)?

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Potemkin Villager
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Re: Labour Party Watch

Post by Potemkin Villager »

UndercoverElephant wrote: 01 Mar 2024, 19:15
Also, I don't need your hints, thank you. Please just speak plainly and clearly. If you think there is a conspiracy other than the obvious one (the WEF) then please explain who you think it is. Otherwise it looks like you might think it is the Illuminati.
Galloway's election certainly got wishy and stormer off their perchs!

Even judged by the appallingly low level of political discourse
wishy's zero detail "speech", which seemed to have been written by
an illuminati AI chatbot, was a masterclass in unsubtle deflection.

What stormer had to say has made it sound as if the electorate were the problem!

The labour party line about how mps need to be wrapped up in cotton wool
and insulated from public anger in some sort of bunker parliament ivory tower
where they can decide what is good for the electorate in isolation and this is democracy is somewhat delusional.
Overconfidence, not just expert overconfidence but general overconfidence,
is one of the most common illusions we experience. Stan Robinson
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UndercoverElephant
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Re: Labour Party Watch

Post by UndercoverElephant »

Potemkin Villager wrote: 01 Mar 2024, 19:36
UndercoverElephant wrote: 01 Mar 2024, 19:15
Also, I don't need your hints, thank you. Please just speak plainly and clearly. If you think there is a conspiracy other than the obvious one (the WEF) then please explain who you think it is. Otherwise it looks like you might think it is the Illuminati.
Galloway's election certainly got wishy and stormer off their perchs!
Which does rather demonstrate that democracy isn't quite dead yet in the UK. They are scared of him because he's not scared of anything they can say about him.
What stormer had to say has made it sound as if the electorate were the problem!
I have seen that sentiment clearly expressed on social media today. Very similar to leave voters -- some people believe the way people voted indicates they aren't fit to vote. In both cases it appears to be a fundamental failure to understand what democracy actually is.
The labour party line about how mps need to be wrapped up in cotton wool
and insulated from public anger in some sort of bunker parliament ivory tower
where they can decide what is good for the electorate in isolation and this is democracy is somewhat delusional.
It is totally delusional, and I am going to be very disappointed if the SNP don't insist their unamended motion is voted on.
"We fail to mandate economic sanity because our brains are addled by....compassion." (Garrett Hardin)
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adam2
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Re: Labour Party/government Watch

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Thread title edited to reflect recent election result.
"Installers and owners of emergency diesels must assume that they will have to run for a week or more"
dustiswhatweare
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Re: Labour Party/government Watch

Post by dustiswhatweare »

''This was unexpected'' said Phil, who likes to talk about politics.

Moi approves of what Starmer has done immediately upon taking office. Keep doing it. Take the politics of of things that need fixing and just treat them as problems that need fixing, without the dogma.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhxlJgW ... ferentBias
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UndercoverElephant
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Re: Labour Party/government Watch

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https://archive.is/jMi5t
John Curtice: Labour’s strength in Commons is heavily exaggerated
Voters have rejected the Conservatives, but they failed to embrace Starmer’s party. Nevertheless, thanks to the electoral system, it still won a landslide
In the most disproportional electoral outcome in British electoral history, Labour’s strength in the new House of Commons is a heavily exaggerated reflection of the party’s limited popularity in the country. It is an outcome that may well breathe new life into the debate about electoral reform, perhaps not least within the Conservative Party.
Labour are going to be in trouble very quickly, I think. Their huge majority is deeply misleading about the actual balance of power in the commons. Yes they have enough MPs to push through whatever the leadership wants, but they are heading towards being a party that tries to please everybody and ends up pleasing nobody. But the real problem is that they hold a lot of seats with small majorities where the smaller parties can now see an opportunity to fight for the seat in 2029. Reform in particular now know exactly where they might win, and they are going to go for the Red Wall.
"We fail to mandate economic sanity because our brains are addled by....compassion." (Garrett Hardin)
dustiswhatweare
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Re: Labour Party/government Watch

Post by dustiswhatweare »

UndercoverElephant wrote: 06 Jul 2024, 13:39 https://archive.is/jMi5t
John Curtice: Labour’s strength in Commons is heavily exaggerated
Voters have rejected the Conservatives, but they failed to embrace Starmer’s party. Nevertheless, thanks to the electoral system, it still won a landslide
In the most disproportional electoral outcome in British electoral history, Labour’s strength in the new House of Commons is a heavily exaggerated reflection of the party’s limited popularity in the country. It is an outcome that may well breathe new life into the debate about electoral reform, perhaps not least within the Conservative Party.
Labour are going to be in trouble very quickly, I think. Their huge majority is deeply misleading about the actual balance of power in the commons. Yes they have enough MPs to push through whatever the leadership wants, but they are heading towards being a party that tries to please everybody and ends up pleasing nobody. But the real problem is that they hold a lot of seats with small majorities where the smaller parties can now see an opportunity to fight for the seat in 2029. Reform in particular now know exactly where they might win, and they are going to go for the Red Wall.
Therefore, what this government needs to do is make things work. When things work, people don't whinge. Remove the need for whinging and the likes of Farage and their brand of malcontent politics are deprived of oxygen.
Avoid sticking plaster solutions, go for the root causes. This has not been happening, either through incompetence, rigid ideology, or flat out idiocy.
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UndercoverElephant
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Re: Labour Party/government Watch

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I don't think that is going to produce visible results very quickly, and I don't think it will be enough.

Labour has just won the biggest majority in recent political history on the smallest vote share. Not only that but a very large chunk of those votes were tactical -- people from all across the political spectrum who voted Labour for only one reason: to get the tories out. Why should somebody whose number one priority is actually climate change and environmentalism continue to support Labour even now, one day after they won? What about people on the left who think this Labour Party sold it soul in order to get elected? Why shouldn't they switch their allegiance now to somebody offering something more radical, even if it isn't realistic?

It's just a hunch, but I am very much looking forwards to the next few opinion polls, especially big MRPs. I think Labour's lead is going to rapidly shrink, and maybe disappear completely.
Last edited by UndercoverElephant on 06 Jul 2024, 18:34, edited 1 time in total.
"We fail to mandate economic sanity because our brains are addled by....compassion." (Garrett Hardin)
dustiswhatweare
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Re: Labour Party/government Watch

Post by dustiswhatweare »

It would not surprise me to see them get radical. Nothing stands in their way. All along I have been hoping this would be the case, we'll see.
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UndercoverElephant
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Re: Labour Party/government Watch

Post by UndercoverElephant »

dustiswhatweare wrote: 06 Jul 2024, 15:27 It would not surprise me to see them get radical. Nothing stands in their way. All along I have been hoping this would be the case, we'll see.
Nothing stands in their way in terms of their parliamentary majority. Their problem is that they don't have a mandate to get radical, and they've shown no sign of being about to get radical. What sort of radical are you expecting or hoping for?

The only thing I can see that they could do is to go after entrenched wealth: non-doms, tax avoidance in general, inheritance tax, capital gains tax, multiple/bad landlords, the banks, big landowners, etc.... This is the true bedrock of the Conservative Party -- it's what the tories have always actually represented, even though they've always assembled a bigger coalition of voters in order to gain and retain power. I'd like to see it, but I am not holding my breath.
"We fail to mandate economic sanity because our brains are addled by....compassion." (Garrett Hardin)
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clv101
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Re: Labour Party/government Watch

Post by clv101 »

Planning is going to see radical, and often unpopular reform. Extending franchise to 16-18 is pretty radical, they might also do automatic voter registration.

But mainly they'll firefighting the many disasters coming down the track.
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UndercoverElephant
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Re: Labour Party/government Watch

Post by UndercoverElephant »

Only one (deliverable) thing is radical enough for me now:

https://www.omfif.org/2024/07/keir-star ... al-system/
Extraordinary UK election result shows how broken [the electoral system] is

While Labour basks in the glow of a thumping 170-seat majority, smarter heads in the party – and indeed across the political spectrum – should quickly turn to consider the UK electoral system that delivered it to them.

Labour has won two-thirds of the seats on little more than one-third of the votes cast. In what was billed as a pivotal moment for the country, 40% of the electorate didn’t bother to exercise their right to choose an MP or government. Voter turn-out was almost 10 percentage points lower than five years ago. Around 20% of those who could have voted chose Labour, whose share of the polling was lower than the party achieved in 2017 while led by unelectable Jeremy Corbyn.

The Liberal Democrats increased their number of MPs by almost 10 times as many as in 2019, while their share of the vote remained static. Meanwhile two challenger parties – Reform and the Greens – picked up a combined 20% of all votes cast but will have little more than 1% of MPs between them in the new parliament.

This was a single-issue election – get rid of the Conservatives – and rightly so after eight years of chaos that began with the referendum on European Union membership in 2016. But it is not a mandate for Keir Starmer and Labour.

For five years, the Tory party deluded itself that its 80-seat majority in 2019 was a ringing endorsement of Boris Johnson. But much of the red wall that turned blue consisted of traditional Labour voters who could not stomach the idea of a government led by hard-left Corbyn. The Johnson coalition was built on sand. Labour would do well to understand its own unstable coalition from day one of its administration.

If it is to win the next election, it will need to deliver on its mandate and show it is fit to govern. Labour and the Liberal Democrats will both find that simply not being the Tories will not be enough to maintain their performance in the next general election.

Starmer’s majority gives him a unique opportunity to reset UK politics. Such a low turn-out reflects the disillusion felt across the country – and not just a lack of enthusiasm for traditionally dominant parties. The UK’s first-past-the-post system does not work. Unless or until every vote counts, apathy will persist and anger at the political class will grow.

The incoming prime minister should immediately propose a review of the UK electoral system that will be complete within two years.
I am already extremely irritated by the failure of both the incoming government and much of the commentary to point out that Labour's majority is not a ringing endorsement of their message. It is nothing of the sort, and the only way Labour can truly show they understand this is by committing to electoral reform and opening up a public debate about what sort of electoral reform is needed.

If there was another general election next week, with the HoC as it currently stands, the result could easily be a hung parliament. And that is before Labour have even had a chance to do anything wrong. That is not a comfortable place to be radical from. It is certainly going to be interesting to see what they actually do though.

conclusion:
No doubt Labour – like any new government – will be wary of expending political time and capital changing the electoral system when it has other priorities in the economy, health, education and the environment. And turkeys don’t vote for Christmas. But Starmer has a remarkable, and pivotal, opportunity to re-enfranchise the UK electorate and immediately consolidate his right to govern. Throughout the campaign, he repeated the mantra ‘country first, party second’. Over to you, prime minister.
"We fail to mandate economic sanity because our brains are addled by....compassion." (Garrett Hardin)
Forever_Winter
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Re: Labour Party/government Watch

Post by Forever_Winter »

I think the debate around electoral reform will grow and grow. I remember we had a referendum in 2011 to change from FPTP to Alternative Vote (AV) but it wasn't that well advertised and I believe the turnout was low.

Even on the Laura Kuensberg show this morning someone mentioned how can a party that got 4m votes (Reform) gets 4 seats and one that got 3.5m votes (LD) got over 70 seats .....

This subject probably needs it's own thread :D
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UndercoverElephant
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Re: Labour Party/government Watch

Post by UndercoverElephant »

Forever_Winter wrote: 07 Jul 2024, 09:47 I think the debate around electoral reform will grow and grow. I remember we had a referendum in 2011 to change from FPTP to Alternative Vote (AV) but it wasn't that well advertised and I believe the turnout was low.
That was the exact opposite of how it should have been done: a shady deal done in a backroom between William Hague and Nick Clegg, to offer the public a form of PR that very few people actually wanted. What is required is a firm commitment to reform the system without a pre-decided answer on what the options are before there is any public debate. It has actually got to be in the public interest, not the result of a deal between two parties acting in their own interest. Country before party must be the guiding principle.
"We fail to mandate economic sanity because our brains are addled by....compassion." (Garrett Hardin)
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clv101
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Re: Labour Party/government Watch

Post by clv101 »

FPTP is a rubbish system, more people than ever now see this. We didn't use it when setting up Scottish, Welsh and NI parliaments, and why the only other country in Europe using it is Belarus! It's indefensible. The debate is about *what* to replace it with, not whether to replace it.
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UndercoverElephant
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Re: Labour Party/government Watch

Post by UndercoverElephant »

clv101 wrote: 07 Jul 2024, 10:22 The debate is about *what* to replace it with, not whether to replace it.
For me the point is that Labour needs to be leading that debate rather than obstructing it. We need a government actually committed to changing the system because it has acknowledged it FPTP is right at the heart of the disenfranchisement of the UK electorate. It should be easy for Labour to do this, given that the membership itself has voted for it at a recent conference and was over-ruled by the leadership. I think this may turn out to be a blind spot for Starmer -- a rare case when his own desire for power -- for a continuation of the unfair advantage that just propelled him into power -- will blind him to the level of anger his continual refusal to budge on this key issue is likely to generate.

I also think it is possible that the Tories will be forced to accept that changing the electoral system is their own only route back into power, even if that means sharing power in a coalition with Reform. And if the Tories are backing electoral reform then it will be suicidal for Labour to be the only party still defending the outdated, unfit-for-purpose system we currently have. If they want to be destroyed at the next election, that's how to do it.
"We fail to mandate economic sanity because our brains are addled by....compassion." (Garrett Hardin)
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