EU membership referendum debate thread

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 19 Jul 2016, 22:20

So, being in the EU precludes laws being passed that are in contradiction with those EU laws. Putting aside the semantics of specific terminology, on this essential point I am factually correct.

The only way in which UK laws can be passed that are in contradiction to EU laws whilst being in the Eu is by leaving the EU. Being in the EU removes the sovereign right of a UK parliament to pass laws of its own choosing.

bigjim · Post by **bigjim** » 19 Jul 2016, 22:46

Little John wrote:The reason there is a shortage of indigenous staff for the NHS is due to a deliberate policy of not providing enough training places in this country in order to offshore the training costs to the countries of origin of said migrants. Which, of course, puts an intolerable financial burden on the taxpayers of already poor countries. So, the argument that we need migrants to fill NHS jobs is based on a cynically politically engineered "need".

Portugal and Spain were hit quite badly in the 2008 financial crisis and as such can't really afford to employ healthcare workers, or so I believe. This being the case, why not take these people here?

Either way, my colleagues are here now, and are doing a good job at filling jobs in a part of the country that does not attract much interest from the natives, so I'm fully supportive of them staying here. Myself, I want to go to Sweden soon- are you against that too? Am I to be trapped here for the rest of my life under your vision?

bigjim · Post by **bigjim** » 19 Jul 2016, 22:47

johnhemming2 wrote: You are, not unusually, factually wrong. The UK parliament has constitutional laws. Those include the Bill of Rights, The Act of Union, The Human Rights Act and the European Communities Act 1972. (and about 10 others).
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1972/68/contents

This affect how law is enforced in the UK. It is entirely possible for the UK parliament to explicitly enter into law something in conflict with EU law. That, however, leads to expulsion from the EU.

The UK constitution is written down, but is not just in one place. Some parts are in the house of commons journals.

It is the European Communities Act that enables EU law to have force.

Thanks John!

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 19 Jul 2016, 23:53

bigjim wrote:
Little John wrote:The reason there is a shortage of indigenous staff for the NHS is due to a deliberate policy of not providing enough training places in this country in order to offshore the training costs to the countries of origin of said migrants. Which, of course, puts an intolerable financial burden on the taxpayers of already poor countries. So, the argument that we need migrants to fill NHS jobs is based on a cynically politically engineered "need".
Portugal and Spain were hit quite badly in the 2008 financial crisis and as such can't really afford to employ healthcare workers, or so I believe. This being the case, why not take these people here?

Either way, my colleagues are here now, and are doing a good job at filling jobs in a part of the country that does not attract much interest from the natives, so I'm fully supportive of them staying here. Myself, I want to go to Sweden soon- are you against that too? Am I to be trapped here for the rest of my life under your vision?

A country should only employ migrants if it cannot fill the jobs it has in place sufficient for its needs. However, that must also include the necessary training facilities such that those jobs are accessible by the indigenous population. At that point, there is every good reason to invite people from other countries to work in that country. However, in a country where wages and conditions are being driven down and where there is insufficient work for the indigenous citizens, then there is no good reason to bring in migrant workers. The only people who benefit from that are the rich for whom migration in any direction are never an issue in any event. For the rest of us, it is merely just another tool used to suppress the pay and conditions of the working class.

People like you really don't get it do you? For at least half of the population of this country, globalization is not working. In fact, is is screwing them. But, all that people like you can do is throw your metaphorical hands up in horror at their stupidity.......right?

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 20 Jul 2016, 05:02

Apparently one of the major sources of income for the Philippines is money sent home by overseas workers. Many of the nurses and doctors from there working in the NHS are sending most of their money home. Yes, that will repay the cost to the Philippines of training them, which is good, but how can it be good for the UK economy that all that money is being drained from our economy. If we trained our own people to do the jobs the money would stay in our economy making it a lot more healthy.

I am not against you going to Sweden, Jim, indeed I had thought about doing that myself, but if the Swedes decide that they don't need you that is their decision and we don't have any say in it. I get the idea that they are getting fed up with large numbers of immigrants just as many people in the UK are.

Regarding the sale of ARM, it is just another company in a long strings of companies that our much vaunted den of gamblers in the City has failed to support in the UK. Why is no one criticising the City over this long string of failures? They, the city gamblers, are too busy making money from money, or at least trying to!

We do have another world leading, innovative, research led manufacturing company and that is Rolls Royce Aero Engines which leads the world in design, manufacture and servicing of aero engines.

fuzzy · Post by **fuzzy** » 20 Jul 2016, 07:53

bigjim wrote:
Little John wrote:The reason there is a shortage of indigenous staff for the NHS is due to a deliberate policy of not providing enough training places in this country in order to offshore the training costs to the countries of origin of said migrants. Which, of course, puts an intolerable financial burden on the taxpayers of already poor countries. So, the argument that we need migrants to fill NHS jobs is based on a cynically politically engineered "need".
Portugal and Spain were hit quite badly in the 2008 financial crisis and as such can't really afford to employ healthcare workers, or so I believe. This being the case, why not take these people here?

Either way, my colleagues are here now, and are doing a good job at filling jobs in a part of the country that does not attract much interest from the natives, so I'm fully supportive of them staying here. Myself, I want to go to Sweden soon- are you against that too? Am I to be trapped here for the rest of my life under your vision?

What a trolling question? It is up to the swedes if they want you, if it was up to me you can go today, and it should be up to the UK majority if we want our population unemployed by allowing euro immigrants.

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 20 Jul 2016, 11:41

Little John wrote:The reason there is a shortage of indigenous staff for the NHS is due to a deliberate policy of not providing enough training places in this country in order to offshore the training costs to the countries of origin of said migrants. Which, of course, puts an intolerable financial burden on the taxpayers of already poor countries. So, the argument that we need migrants to fill NHS jobs is based on a cynically politically engineered "need".

Not quite 'taxpayers' LJ but I know what you mean. Irish student nurses work/study 40 hours a week unpaid so also have to take some crappy job to finance their studies. The qualified pay and conditions in Ireland are shit unless you're a consultant/administrator, so these students can't wait to get out to the likes of the UK/Australia/Canada etc.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 20 Jul 2016, 12:52

Haven't the UK government just done something similar with our student nurses? They used to get paid for the work they did on wards as part of their degree course meaning that they didn't have to have such a large student loan or get an extra job. Now the government has stopped that pay and transferred the cost of that nursing work from the NHS to the students! Bastards!!

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 20 Jul 2016, 15:52

effin bastards!! I think.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 20 Jul 2016, 16:44

kenneal - lagger wrote:Haven't the UK government just done something similar with our student nurses? They used to get paid for the work they did on wards as part of their degree course meaning that they didn't have to have such a large student loan or get an extra job. Now the government has stopped that pay and transferred the cost of that nursing work from the NHS to the students! Bastards!!

Yes, student nurses now have to, effectively, pay to work. You couldn't make this shit up

bigjim · Post by **bigjim** » 20 Jul 2016, 23:00

fuzzy wrote:What a trolling question? It is up to the swedes if they want you, if it was up to me you can go today, and it should be up to the UK majority if we want our population unemployed by allowing euro immigrants.

Not really trolling, and under current arrangements it still is up to Swedes if they want me- I'd have to find an employer willing to hire me. I do believe though that a lot of Swedish healthcare workers find work in Norway because of the better pay there, creating a shortage of workers in Sweden.

bigjim · Post by **bigjim** » 20 Jul 2016, 23:05

Little John wrote:Yes, student nurses now have to, effectively, pay to work. You couldn't make this shit up

Student nurses do a fantastic job. I think the NHS would collapse without their efforts, they frequently end up doing work that ought really to be done by paid health care assistants. Even if they're in receipt of a bursary I'd still class them as good value, or more cynically, cheap labour.

AutomaticEarth · Post by **AutomaticEarth** » 08 Aug 2016, 21:33

Just watching the BBC2 programme Brexit: The battle for Britain.

On reflection, it's amazing how wrong the Remain campaign got their tactics. Still, the programme wastes no time in having people like Peter Mandelson put the boot into Jermy Corbyn for the Brexit victory.

From what I remember, Corbyn said something along the lines of 'I'm in favour of the EU in general, but there is no question that uncontrolled migration is putting pressure on services and wages and needs to be addressed'. That, to me at least, were probably some of the truest words spoken throughout the campaign.

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 08 Aug 2016, 22:50

Since the remain campaigners got it so wrong, it's a good job they lost, and we are now free of tweedledumb and tweedledumber. We now have a PM who might just do the job of PM instead of playing to the gallery.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 08 Aug 2016, 23:35

AutomaticEarth wrote: On reflection, it's amazing how wrong the Remain campaign got their tactics.

A case of failing to understand how the people who disagree with you actually think. Also a case of overconfidence - I know several people who were utterly convinced that Remain would win, even when the polls were showing a significant lead for Brexit. If you think about it, that is actually pretty weird. Why would the polls be so badly wrong?

On the other hand, it appears that some of the leaders of the Brexit campaign didn't actually believe the polls either!