Sales of heat pumps reported to be much less than "needed" or expected by HMG.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68575271
Interesting picture in the news story, shows installation of a flue liner as used for a solid fuel stove, and almost certainly nothing to do with a heat pump !
Heat pumps? Not so convinced now.
Moderator: Peak Moderation
-
adam2
- Site Admin
- Posts: 10880
- Joined: 02 Jul 2007, 17:49
- Location: North Somerset, twinned with Atlantis
Re: Heat pumps? Not so convinced now.
"Installers and owners of emergency diesels must assume that they will have to run for a week or more"
Re: Heat pumps? Not so convinced now.
I am getting a "free' heat pump survey and quote from octopus (returnable deposit) but it is clear that there will be a lot of hidden costs and uncertain returns if i go ahead with the install.
In our case, and probably true of millions of modern homes, cost cutting in its original construction has resulted in major retrofitting costs for a later improvement. Specifically the fitting of microbore central heating piping in our case. This alone will treble the net cost to us, and more if we don't want ugly surface mounted pipes in many rooms.
Secondly, there are still significant administrative hurdles, many installs will need planning permission over potential noise pollution, and could even have public liability implications.
Thirdly, the relatively generous government grant requires full compliance with MCS regulations. This includes things like fitting an unnecessary large hot water cylinder, much larger than the one our house was built with, just to ensure that the entire household can have wastefully full baths and long showers every day. These tanks often end up in the roof or garage, adding significant installation costs, and reducing system efficiency.
Forth problem is that the systems need very careful design and configuration to achieve the claimed efficiencies, and the 24/7 heating style might not suit all households.
More generally, if we install, we are making our house less resilient by limiting ourselves to one external source of energy, electricity. If we were to face regular or scheduled electricity cuts in an energy constrained future our heating costs would go up sharply.
In our individual case we could offset that risk by expanding the size of oursolar battery, which would mean we could ride out short power cuts, and run the majority of our heating off the battery which we charge cheaply at night. Of course, there is no guarantee that the cheap nighttime tariffs will be available in the future, and the system is unlikely to pay for itself in the lifetime of the battery or heat pump. I could add extra solar panels to our garage, but these wouldn't help much, as they produce very little in winter, when we need the extra power.
Heat pumps are also more advanced technology which require more regular maintenance and require a more skilled workforce, which is currently not available.
Ironically, modern heat pumps seem to make more economic sense in older, less well insulated houses.
If I were to spend four times the headline figure, I could end up with a cheap to run heating system with low carbon emissions, but only after a lot of high carbon retrofitting of high technology equipment.
In our case, and probably true of millions of modern homes, cost cutting in its original construction has resulted in major retrofitting costs for a later improvement. Specifically the fitting of microbore central heating piping in our case. This alone will treble the net cost to us, and more if we don't want ugly surface mounted pipes in many rooms.
Secondly, there are still significant administrative hurdles, many installs will need planning permission over potential noise pollution, and could even have public liability implications.
Thirdly, the relatively generous government grant requires full compliance with MCS regulations. This includes things like fitting an unnecessary large hot water cylinder, much larger than the one our house was built with, just to ensure that the entire household can have wastefully full baths and long showers every day. These tanks often end up in the roof or garage, adding significant installation costs, and reducing system efficiency.
Forth problem is that the systems need very careful design and configuration to achieve the claimed efficiencies, and the 24/7 heating style might not suit all households.
More generally, if we install, we are making our house less resilient by limiting ourselves to one external source of energy, electricity. If we were to face regular or scheduled electricity cuts in an energy constrained future our heating costs would go up sharply.
In our individual case we could offset that risk by expanding the size of oursolar battery, which would mean we could ride out short power cuts, and run the majority of our heating off the battery which we charge cheaply at night. Of course, there is no guarantee that the cheap nighttime tariffs will be available in the future, and the system is unlikely to pay for itself in the lifetime of the battery or heat pump. I could add extra solar panels to our garage, but these wouldn't help much, as they produce very little in winter, when we need the extra power.
Heat pumps are also more advanced technology which require more regular maintenance and require a more skilled workforce, which is currently not available.
Ironically, modern heat pumps seem to make more economic sense in older, less well insulated houses.
If I were to spend four times the headline figure, I could end up with a cheap to run heating system with low carbon emissions, but only after a lot of high carbon retrofitting of high technology equipment.
-
UndercoverElephant
- Posts: 13478
- Joined: 10 Mar 2008, 00:00
- Location: UK
Re: Heat pumps? Not so convinced now.
We now have a heat pump, installed along with solar panels and an entire new heating system for nothing. All we paid for was 2 out 12 panels, and £4000 for a battery, plus a bit to change the inverter to one which was compatible with the battery. I don't know what the rest of the system would have cost, but my guess is at least £20K and maybe £30K.
Would that have been worth it? Absolutely not. From a simple financial point of view there would have been no point, and we would have been better off staying on heating oil.
Is it worth it now? Absolutely, but only because we are also self-sufficient in firewood. The problem is that the system is eye-wateringly expensive to run at exactly the point when it is most needed -- when it is well below freezing outside. We got through a lot of wood over the winter --- we ran out. Next winter we will use it when it is most needed. When the wood burner is running all day then the heat pump is only needed for the hot water and to keep the peripheral bits of the house a habitable 17 degrees, while the woodburner belts out heat to make the living room toasty warm, which spreads out to the rest of house so the central heating doesn't have to do much.
Summary: it is only worth it because the system was heavily subsidised and because we can use free firewood to do most of the work in the depths of winter. And it really is free, because we produce our own wood and we use free electricity in the summer to cut it up.
Would that have been worth it? Absolutely not. From a simple financial point of view there would have been no point, and we would have been better off staying on heating oil.
Is it worth it now? Absolutely, but only because we are also self-sufficient in firewood. The problem is that the system is eye-wateringly expensive to run at exactly the point when it is most needed -- when it is well below freezing outside. We got through a lot of wood over the winter --- we ran out. Next winter we will use it when it is most needed. When the wood burner is running all day then the heat pump is only needed for the hot water and to keep the peripheral bits of the house a habitable 17 degrees, while the woodburner belts out heat to make the living room toasty warm, which spreads out to the rest of house so the central heating doesn't have to do much.
Summary: it is only worth it because the system was heavily subsidised and because we can use free firewood to do most of the work in the depths of winter. And it really is free, because we produce our own wood and we use free electricity in the summer to cut it up.
"We fail to mandate economic sanity because our brains are addled by....compassion." (Garrett Hardin)
Re: Heat pumps? Not so convinced now.
Latest iteration of building regulations in Scotland have totally banned combustion - no woodburners, oil or gas boilers in new builds. Step too far IMO as firstly it makes it very difficult/expensive to build off-grid and secondly it makes homes very vulnerable in event of extended power cuts.
-
BritDownUnder
- Posts: 2472
- Joined: 21 Sep 2011, 12:02
- Location: Hunter Valley, NSW, Australia
Re: Heat pumps? Not so convinced now.
Scotland seems to be getting a bit of a nanny state with quite a lot of rules. Maybe some kind of dispensation for emergencies needs to be introduced, e.g. use of woodfire during power cuts or periods of extreme cold weather. I have some sympathy towards restrictions on woodburners as the suburban area in which I live is regularly subject to smoke from woodburners in poorly insulated houses during the slightest cold spell.
Maybe a wood burner be allowed in a house which has been insulated well but not in poorly insulated houses and which is a certain distance from a neighbouring house that will suffer the smoke effects.
Seems a bit hypocritical to ban fossil fuels from the party whose slogan a few years ago was "It's Scotland's Oil".
Maybe a wood burner be allowed in a house which has been insulated well but not in poorly insulated houses and which is a certain distance from a neighbouring house that will suffer the smoke effects.
Seems a bit hypocritical to ban fossil fuels from the party whose slogan a few years ago was "It's Scotland's Oil".
G'Day cobber!
Re: Heat pumps? Not so convinced now.
Great idea re electric chainsaw in summer. In fact any business involving power tools. I'm looking at fitting a 3 phase system to run my larger machinery
You might think about an electric kiln too, the underfloor heating film I fitted to my seed benches in the poly tunnel is cheap to buy and easy to install. Energy spent drying your firewood is extra heat released when you burn it.
You might think about an electric kiln too, the underfloor heating film I fitted to my seed benches in the poly tunnel is cheap to buy and easy to install. Energy spent drying your firewood is extra heat released when you burn it.
Re: Heat pumps? Not so convinced now.
Had my free survey for fitting a heat pump. As I expected the entire house would need replacement pipework as it is all 8mm, and there is no convenient location for the larger hot water tank. At present it is not an economic prospect, even with the government grant. I will wait and see if future designs arrived that can operate with the existing pipework. I could accept a lower cop by fitting a larger battery and powering it off cheap rate electricity. Alternately may look at an air to air heat pump to supplement the gas ch
-
kenneal - lagger
- Site Admin
- Posts: 14290
- Joined: 20 Sep 2006, 02:35
- Location: Newbury, Berkshire
- Contact:
Re: Heat pumps? Not so convinced now.
What's the betting that we will see extensive power cuts in the future once the FF boiler ban and ICE car ban comes into effect as ageing electricity distribution systems come under strain? It will be the energy industry equivalent of the current sewage flooding problems that we are having now where the industry has spent bill payers money and borrowings on vast bonuses for executives and huge dividends for shareholders rather than investments to alleviate the known problems that are coming due to climate change.
The other problem with housing is that the government wishes to address climate change by keeping unsustainable output and consumption high to bolster economic growth rather than reduce consumption to more sustainable levels with the possibility of cutting growth to more sustainable levels.
Small heat pumps in highly insulated houses are a solution provided that an alternative heating/cooking system is provided. Large heat pumps in uninsulated or badly insulated houses are just not sustainable nor are they likely to be affordable to run. But economics rules, OK?
The other problem with housing is that the government wishes to address climate change by keeping unsustainable output and consumption high to bolster economic growth rather than reduce consumption to more sustainable levels with the possibility of cutting growth to more sustainable levels.
Small heat pumps in highly insulated houses are a solution provided that an alternative heating/cooking system is provided. Large heat pumps in uninsulated or badly insulated houses are just not sustainable nor are they likely to be affordable to run. But economics rules, OK?
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
Re: Heat pumps? Not so convinced now.
This looks like an interesting product:
https://www.saturnsales.co.uk/images/pr ... ZSX-WF.pdf
An air-to-air heat pump. Easy to install. The smallest version is ~£1000 and provides 2 kW of cooling for 310 W or 2.7 kW of heat for 470 W.
That seems like a pretty effective solution for winter and summer - stick one of those in your main living area and for a very modest power demand you'll never be really hot or really cold.
https://www.saturnsales.co.uk/images/pr ... ZSX-WF.pdf
An air-to-air heat pump. Easy to install. The smallest version is ~£1000 and provides 2 kW of cooling for 310 W or 2.7 kW of heat for 470 W.
That seems like a pretty effective solution for winter and summer - stick one of those in your main living area and for a very modest power demand you'll never be really hot or really cold.