When the lights go out.

[adam2]

In years gone by "dry charged" car starter and other batteries could be obtained, mainly for export to remote places.
The plates of these batteries were coated with the correct materials, and the then the battery was made completly airtight for shipping and storage, with the acid supplied seperatly.
This worked fairly well, though nothing like a full charge was available on filling with acid, it was normally enough to start a car engine, the dynamo of which would then fully charge the battery.

These days dry charged batteries are not readily available.

Some batteries are supplied without acid, to ease transport. The shelf life is very limited indeed and the suppliers recomend adding the acid and charging the battery promptly after delivery, and not storing the battery without acid.
If this is not done, the plates suffer some form of damage due to oxygen and moisture in the air.

Obtaining a standard lead acid battery ready filled with acid, and tipping out the acid for seperate storage wont work.
The plates will still be soaked in acid and will sulphate as they cant be charged. The effect would to render the battery less good, and in at most a few months completly useless.

Batteries seem to keep fairly well if either put on continual float charge at a slightly lower voltage than normal, say 13.65 to 13.70 volts.
Alternatively a standard float charger with a 13.8 to 13.85 volt output can be used, but via timeswitch rather than 24/7

[Little John]

In years gone by "dry charged" car starter and other batteries could be obtained, mainly for export to remote places.
The plates of these batteries were coated with the correct materials, and the then the battery was made completly airtight for shipping and storage, with the acid supplied seperatly.
This worked fairly well, though nothing like a full charge was available on filling with acid, it was normally enough to start a car engine, the dynamo of which would then fully charge the battery.

These days dry charged batteries are not readily available.

Some batteries are supplied without acid, to ease transport. The shelf life is very limited indeed and the suppliers recomend adding the acid and charging the battery promptly after delivery, and not storing the battery without acid.
If this is not done, the plates suffer some form of damage due to oxygen and moisture in the air.

Obtaining a standard lead acid battery ready filled with acid, and tipping out the acid for seperate storage wont work.
The plates will still be soaked in acid and will sulphate as they cant be charged. The effect would to render the battery less good, and in at most a few months completly useless.

Batteries seem to keep fairly well if either put on continual float charge at a slightly lower voltage than normal, say 13.65 to 13.70 volts.
Alternatively a standard float charger with a 13.8 to 13.85 volt output can be used, but via timeswitch rather than 24/7

Thanks for that info Adam.

[jonny2mad]

when the lights go out I intend hibernation.

Years ago when my parents said right we are stopping using electricity at first we used things like candles, but gradually especially in the winter months we slept more

as the collapse continues some of you will try to old on to your modern ways with your electricity and whatnots, me I shall become more in tune with the seasons

http://www.motherearthliving.com/health ... helps.aspx

russian and french country folks used to hibernate they will do again

[adam2]

I can forsee more sleeping when it is dark, but is not easy to manage without any lighting in the darker months of the year.

Is reading, music making, and culture in general to be entirely forgotten ? such activities are often best performed by man made light during winter evenings when it is too dark to work outside.
Many traditional games and pastimes need only a little light, but some is needed.
And what about knitting, spinning, or sewing ? might be more needed in a poorer future, and again is often done when it is dark outside.

And of course illness or medical emergencies wont allways wait for it to get light.

With modern high efficiency lamps, very little energy is needed for effective lighting.
100 watts will light a house brightly, and 10 watts will give a lot more light than most of our ancestors enjoyed.

As an example, the following light sources give a broadly similar light output.
A duplex oil lamp
A single inverted gas mantle
A 60 watt carbon filament light bulb
A 25 watt tungsten lamp
A 5 watt compact flourescent
A 2 watt LED

So in about 100 years we have gone from a duplex oil lamp, a relatively large, costly and fragile item that consumed too much oil to be affordable for all but the rich, to a 2 watt LED that is simple, durable, can be used anywhere, and is incredibly cheap to run.

A one or two watt LED lamp gives more light than many of our ancestors enjoyed, and is easily powered by disposable batteries, home made batteries, human effort, or a very small RE system.
It would be well to keep a few spares in case of loss or damage, you certainly can not make them yourself.
Making a very little electricity is very easy, and the effort or costs innvolved would probably compare well with making candles or extracting lamp oil from oil bearing crops.

Still a good idea to have a low technology "plan B" though, and for this reason I keep a few thousand candles.
This may sound a lot, but at an average of one candle a day it is only about 10 years worth.
Likewise I keep about 100 liters of parafin, which again sounds a lot, but at the meagre rate of 0.1L a day it is only 1,000 days, or less than 3 years.

[clv101]

Very good post. It is remarkable how much as can achieve, with so little electrical energy. I just wish society could get serious about reducing electrical consumption to make it relatively easy for renewables to cover the vast majority of demand.

[Tarrel]

Very good post. It is remarkable how much as can achieve, with so little electrical energy. I just wish society could get serious about reducing electrical consumption to make it relatively easy for renewables to cover the vast majority of demand.

Sorry, but whenever I consider this topic, I'm always brought back to the hundreds of plasma screens displaying advertising on the escalators at Waterloo tube station, plus the many others like it, and the man-height letters of the illuminated signs on my local Tesco, which are on all four sides of the building, and on 24/7. Not to mention the floodlights in the car park that are also on throughout the hours of darkness. Compared to this absolute squandering of energy, I'm certain that the potential savings made in domestic situations are a drop in the ocean. (Although every little helps! ).

Having said that, I do understand that the context in this post is having a back-up lighting plan. This is clearly easier to achieve with low energy lighting.

It's really difficult to get the average person to change their behaviour when all the signals they receive day-by-day are; "business as usual". It would send a strong message if some of these high profile organisations were to actually do something practical and visible to reduce their energy consumption. (Don't want to "frighten the horses" though). Our local Tesco was opened about two years ago, and was actually billed as one of their "eco stores". Admittedly, it does have some big roof lights to let in natural daylight, and some natty timber framing in the structure. But walking in there at this time of year is like walking into an oven. Other supermarkets are similar.

[clv101]

Very good post. It is remarkable how much as can achieve, with so little electrical energy. I just wish society could get serious about reducing electrical consumption to make it relatively easy for renewables to cover the vast majority of demand.

Sorry, but whenever I consider this topic, I'm always brought back to the hundreds of plasma screens displaying advertising on the escalators at Waterloo tube station, plus the many others like it, and the man-height letters of the illuminated signs on my local Tesco, which are on all four sides of the building, and on 24/7. Not to mention the floodlights in the car park that are also on throughout the hours of darkness. Compared to this absolute squandering of energy, I'm certain that the potential savings made in domestic situations are a drop in the ocean. (Although every little helps! ).

Totally agree, I wasn't just thinking domestically.

[Snail]

People need to learn how valuable/wonderful energy is. Not simply by reading it, or examining the numbers.

But experiencing it in a direct, physical way. Like living off a battery. Or some sort of rationing. Or teqs. Until this, energy will always be taken for granted.

---

Saw this a while ago:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-60W-FOLDA ... 5652234601

60w folding solar panel with controller. All you'd need I believe is a battery. £70 inc pp. Also have 45w and 120w ones. No connection, Just thought it a good deal (surprised how cheap solar panels have already become too) so stuck the link here.

[jonny2mad]

I can forsee more sleeping when it is dark, but is not easy to manage without any lighting in the darker months of the year.

Is reading, music making, and culture in general to be entirely forgotten ? such activities are often best performed by man made light during winter evenings when it is too dark to work outside.
Many traditional games and pastimes need only a little light, but some is needed.
And what about knitting, spinning, or sewing ? might be more needed in a poorer future, and again is often done when it is dark outside.

And of course illness or medical emergencies wont allways wait for it to get light.

With modern high efficiency lamps, very little energy is needed for effective lighting.
100 watts will light a house brightly, and 10 watts will give a lot more light than most of our ancestors enjoyed.

As an example, the following light sources give a broadly similar light output.
A duplex oil lamp
A single inverted gas mantle
A 60 watt carbon filament light bulb
A 25 watt tungsten lamp
A 5 watt compact flourescent
A 2 watt LED

So in about 100 years we have gone from a duplex oil lamp, a relatively large, costly and fragile item that consumed too much oil to be affordable for all but the rich, to a 2 watt LED that is simple, durable, can be used anywhere, and is incredibly cheap to run.

A one or two watt LED lamp gives more light than many of our ancestors enjoyed, and is easily powered by disposable batteries, home made batteries, human effort, or a very small RE system.
It would be well to keep a few spares in case of loss or damage, you certainly can not make them yourself.
Making a very little electricity is very easy, and the effort or costs innvolved would probably compare well with making candles or extracting lamp oil from oil bearing crops.

Still a good idea to have a low technology "plan B" though, and for this reason I keep a few thousand candles.
This may sound a lot, but at an average of one candle a day it is only about 10 years worth.
Likewise I keep about 100 liters of parafin, which again sounds a lot, but at the meagre rate of 0.1L a day it is only 1,000 days, or less than 3 years.

I don't see us powering down to any great extent, is living without electricity hard yes, is electric light a great thing yes, will we have it long term into the future nope dont think so.

A age of collapse and barbarism approaches, yup there will be some people who have stored led lights and they will likely work for a while, but gradually those lights will go out



I think the lights will go out faster than people think after collapse, and if I were any of you I'd make sure you had blackout curtains if your going to use lights, because they will be a clear sign of someone to try robbing as will pv panels etc.

dark days are a coming

[adam2]

I don't see us powering down to any great extent, is living without electricity hard yes, is electric light a great thing yes, will we have it long term into the future nope dont think so.

A age of collapse and barbarism approaches, yup there will be some people who have stored led lights and they will likely work for a while, but gradually those lights will go out



I think the lights will go out faster than people think after collapse, and if I were any of you I'd make sure you had blackout curtains if your going to use lights, because they will be a clear sign of someone to try robbing as will pv panels etc.

dark days are a coming

Yes, I agree that dark days are coming, and that the lights in general may well go out quickly.
I have stored LED and other lighting equipment to last for many years, they will indeed gradualy go out but might outlast me !
I have batteries for years, the means to make simple batteries, spare LEDs, a stealth PV system, some stored PV modules and so on.

And yes I do have blackout curtains, because as you point out, the showing of lights could be most unwise.
I purchased a large supply of heavy weight military surplus wool blankets in a dark gray and dyed these black so as to make them light proof.
They may be used as blankets or as blackout curtains according to need.

[Kentucky Fried Panda]

This is my 12v back up

I know it's not a deep cycle leisure battery, but maintaining one of them is something I'd probably forget. The battery booster on the other hand gets charged once a month.
I use it for pumping up tyres and when I go out off road it comes with me. If like me your neighbours are always knocking on your door asking for jump leads and help. It's very handy and easier than moving a car and jumper leads.

I just plug in either my 300W or 600W inverter, depending on what I'm doing.

The link is for DODGY TAX AVOIDERS, but I got mine from Costco, about £45-

The other thing I did was charge my USB appliances, phone and drill battery packs in the car. A car is an excellent battery charger, I have a multi output rig in the back and stuff is charging all the time.

[woodburner]

And yes I do have blackout curtains, because as you point out, the showing of lights could be most unwise.
I purchased a large supply of heavy weight military surplus wool blankets in a dark gray and dyed these black so as to make them light proof.
They may be used as blankets or as blackout curtains according to need.

Then when the thugs cruise by shining their torches on houses to see what's there, they notice something suspiciously like, er, blackout curtains. "Mmmm, wonder what's 'idden be'ind them there curt'ns, son." "Dunno, let's 'ave a look, innit."

[woodburner]

I know it's not a deep cycle leisure battery, but maintaining one of them is something I'd probably forget.

I'll post a link for this later.

[adam2]

And yes I do have blackout curtains, because as you point out, the showing of lights could be most unwise.
I purchased a large supply of heavy weight military surplus wool blankets in a dark gray and dyed these black so as to make them light proof.
They may be used as blankets or as blackout curtains according to need.

Then when the thugs cruise by shining their torches on houses to see what's there, they notice something suspiciously like, er, blackout curtains. "Mmmm, wonder what's 'idden be'ind them there curt'ns, son." "Dunno, let's 'ave a look, innit."

For this reason I favour placing the blackout curtains INSIDE the ordinary curtains, so that from the out side the windows/curtaind appear normal.

[kenneal - lagger]

If anyone shines a torch in through my windows they will get an unpleasant surprise. That's one of the advantages of living several hundred metres off the road, you don't get casual visitors as they stick out like a sore thumb and they are wary of my dogs (another essential for when the lights go out and well worth the extra food needed).

If you're going to the expense of getting a generator and storing fuel it would be best to go that little bit further and get a diesel one. They last longer, they are more economic to run, they are easier to maintain, the fuel is easier and safer to store and you can get bulk loads of fuel delivered legally and cheaply. When the the lights go out you could, if you have the land, grow an oil crop to keep the genny going.

If you have a battery setup at home you can get "shore connection" inverters which will automatically charge the batteries for you while the mains is on and automatically connect to the batteries if the mains goes off. They are preprogrammed to bulk charge or trickle charge as necessary and some have a solar charger built in. You would need the emergency circuits that they supply to be independent of the mains though.