Extinction Rebellion, ongoing disscussion.

For threads primarily discussing Climate Change (particularly in relation to Peak Oil)

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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

Besides, it's not really about an individual, special though she is.

It's about collective choices, which we all continue to make every day. As one guy said, this not the new normal. Normal is finished, gone.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
Little John
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Post by Little John »

LJ you have been reading too much "Spiked" nonsense and your intellect is being impaired.

Just because journalist Brendan O'Neill says a lot of things that you agree with politically doesn't mean that his opinions, and it is only his opinion, on Climate Science have any validity or even make any sense. Just because he thinks that doing something about Climate Change might hit the working class doesn't mean that the science is wrong and the problem shouldn't be addressed.


Okay Ken, regarding your second point.

So what if I read Spiked online? I read and re-post lots of articles from lots of sources whose political biases are wildly diverging. You should try it.

As for Brendan O'Neill, I happen to disagree with a great deal of what he writes, as it happens. In particular, his writings on the Palestinian/Israeli issue. Also, his extreme libertarianism is, arguably, his defining philosophical characteristic. Which is another significant point of divergence. This really is a most weak and intellectually vacuous line of attack Ken, I am bound to say.
Little John
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Post by Little John »

Just for you Ken. Sorry I couldn't find one at short notice by your current favorite bogyman. Maybe next time.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/01/2 ... democracy/
Tim Black

The climate emergency is a threat to democracy

Environmentalism has resurged since 2016 as an elite response to the populist challenge.

One week, it’s that old Malthusian David Attenborough telling us ‘the moment of crisis has come’. The next it’s that young Malthusian Greta Thunberg telling us ‘our house is still on fire’ and ‘inaction is fuelling the flames’.

Both express the key elements of today’s environmentalist script. The shrill tone. The end-is-nigh urgency. The act-now-or-else command. And underwriting this script, as ever, is the core idea of contemporary environmentalism — namely, the climate emergency. This is the idea that so imminent and ‘existential’ is the threat of climate change that world leaders need to act as if they are at war. They need to declare a state of emergency. There’s no time for deliberation or debate anymore, because, well, ‘our house is on fire’. In this state of emergency, all civil liberties and democratic freedoms can be suspended. All dissent and debate silenced. Only then will the authorities, using all force necessary, be able to do what needs to be done to protect us from the enemy. It just so happens that this enemy happens to be us, and our all-consuming passions.

This wartime analogy has long lurked on the deep-ecological fringes of the environmentalist movement. It crops up, for instance, in James Lovelock’s 2009 broadside, The Vanishing Face of Gaia. He writes that surviving climate change ‘may require, as in war, the suspension of democratic government for the duration of the survival emergency’.

But only now has it entered the mainstream. So, in May last year, the Guardian revised its style guide, stating that ‘instead of “climate change�, the preferred terms are “climate emergency, crisis or breakdown�’. That same month, the UK became the first nation state to declare a climate emergency, days after similar declarations from Scotland and Wales. In June, New York City became the world’s largest city to declare a climate emergency. And then, in November, the European Parliament, with new Commission president Ursula von der Leyen leading the charge, did likewise, for the EU. Little wonder Oxford Dictionaries made ‘climate emergency’ its word of the year.

Not everyone has been quite as keen to embrace the emergency rhetoric. In November, a few MEPs from the European Parliament’s largest bloc, the European People’s Party, struck a note of caution amid the EU’s clamour for a declaration of climate emergency. They were worried that the language was just a little too redolent of Nazi-era Germany.

Which is understandable. The Emergency Decree for the Protection of the German People, issued on 28 February 1933, permitted the suspension of the democratic aspects of the soon-to-disappear Weimar Republic, and legally sanctioned the Nazis’ suppression and persecution of political opponents. That, after all, is what states of emergency tend to entail: a clampdown on civil and democratic freedom in the interests of preserving the state against a perceived existential threat. And that is what the climate emergency entails, too.

It raises a few questions. Given the unpleasant, brown-shirted whiff steaming off the idea of a climate emergency, why are political and cultural elites in the EU, the UK and the US so willing to embrace it? And, more pertinently, why now?

It cannot be fully explained by reference to the state of the environment, no matter how devastating the Australian bushfires, or destructive the floods in northern England. For there is always more to environmentalism than environmental challenges. And the ‘more’ in this case is the seismic shift in the post-2016 political landscape. It is a landscape in which Western elites find themselves mortally threatened, not so much by climate change, but by those they can blame for it – the people. And this is precisely why climate change has resurged as an issue over the past few years, and why the profoundly anti-democratic idea of a climate emergency lies at its heart. Because it is being mobilised against the populist threat.

The shift in tone of the climate-change issue is marked. When environmentalism last enjoyed its moment in the blazing Sun, in the mid-2000s, it was still of course a catastrophist narrative. It could hardly have been otherwise, given its anti-Enlightenment, Malthusian origins. But the approach was condescendingly scientistic rather than shrill and panic-stricken. The truth was ‘inconvenient’, rather than compelling. An IPCC report would offer a ‘very likely’ range of future scenarios, rather than offer a singularly ‘scary’ warning. But then environmentalism preached to estranged, often understandably bored electorates, rather than recalcitrant, restive ones.

This patronising, scientistic tone reflected environmentalism’s political, ideological function, as a legitimising gloss painted on to Western political elites’ administration of things. It was the handmaiden of technocracy and managerialism. It allowed post-Cold War elites to disavow modernity, justify long-term economic stagnation, and provide their Third Way governance with a semblance of purpose.

The financial crash and subsequent economic crisis was to sideline environmentalism. From 2008 onwards, justifying economic stagnation no longer needed a green dressing. It could become, as ‘austerity’, a policy and ideology in its own right. Hence, from the UK to the crisis-ridden eurozone, politicians of all stripes now talked of fiscal responsibility, of cutting back and consuming less.

2016 changed everything. The populist challenge to the political classes of Europe and the US, which had been stirring for a while, erupted in the form of Brexit and the election of Donald Trump as US president. And environmentalism resurged in response. It had always served as a way of managing the public, of justifying the political class’s mode of governance. Now it could serve as a way of quelling the populist challenge. Of diminishing people’s democratic aspirations. Of suppressing the rejection of technocracy and managerialism. After all, what is politics – or ‘taxes or Brexit’ – beside the climate emergency?

Climate activists, a uniformly bourgeois bunch as opposed to Brexit as they are to Trump voters, have rallied. Rising Up!, the group that was to launch Extinction Rebellion in 2018, staged its first ‘action’ in November 2016. And the teachers’ pets of the Climate Strike movement began theirs in the summer of 2018.

Sometimes they have positioned themselves explicitly against Brexit, or Trump. But often they don’t need to. Their climate-emergency message does the job implicitly, functioning, as it does, as an all-purpose means to diminish and even suppress the democratic ambitions of the revolting masses.

Little wonder, then, that environmentalism is so central to the preservation of the status quo today. The climate emergency is the elites’ response to the populist challenge. It represents the suspension of people’s democratic aspirations. The suspension of politics. But, as has been demonstrated ever since 2016, the populist challenge resists suspension.
Last edited by Little John on Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Potemkin Villager
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Post by Potemkin Villager »

Little John wrote:
...... I'm just going to have to be blunt about it. You don't know what you are talking about and I do. ......
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I am trying to detect irony or the teeniest smidgen of humour but not succeeding. It is very hard for mere mortals to argue with such obvious and of course self evidently true assertions.
Little John
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Post by Little John »

Potemkin Villager wrote:
Little John wrote:
...... I'm just going to have to be blunt about it. You don't know what you are talking about and I do. ......
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I am trying to detect irony or the teeniest smidgen of humour but not succeeding. It is very hard for mere mortals to argue with such obvious and of course self evidently true assertions.
No irony or humour I assure you. Just an objective statement regarding the particular point to which I was replying.
kenneal - lagger
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

I have deleted seven posts from two individuals who were having a private spat. Please could we take these type of personal posts to PMs or preferably not have them at all. They contributed nothing towards the argument above nor to any others on this forum.

I thank you for your future cooperation, gentlemen.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
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adam2
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Post by adam2 »

According to various sources, ER have something major planned for May 23rd.
Anyone know what is planned ?
"Installers and owners of emergency diesels must assume that they will have to run for a week or more"
woodburner
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Post by woodburner »

adam2 wrote:According to various sources, ER have something major planned for May 23rd.
Anyone know what is planned ?

It could be the ordination (or canonization or whatever it’s called) of St. Greta


Is worldxr.org anything to do with XR? If so they ain’t very ecological, more artificial.
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
kenneal - lagger
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

A judge lets XR activists walk and in praising them says that they should succeed in their campaign.

A comment accusing them of being scruffs is obviously wrong then.

And woodburner you will have to look harder for your obfuscation above. Not very clever and not even funny!
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
Little John
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Post by Little John »

The next stage in the globalist flank of the establishment's beatification of Greta Thunberg.

I think, what with the Brexit fiasco and now this, it can be confidently asserted that the petite bourgeoisie really are the dumbest amongst us. This is especially hilarious given that the petite bourgeoisie have a pronounced tendency to view themselves as a cultural/intellectual "cut-above" the average unwashed prole.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/12405 ... e-activist

When describing the underlying psychological drivers of the petite bourgeoisie, Malcolm X got it about right

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf7rsCAfQCo

I'm a "field negro", for the avoidance of any doubt... :D
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adam2
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Post by adam2 »

There is a TV programme tonight (16/02/2020) on channel 5 at 21-00 about ER.
"Installers and owners of emergency diesels must assume that they will have to run for a week or more"
woodburner
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Post by woodburner »

They have generated some favourable publicity for themselves ahead of the program.

https://youtu.be/HA7w9Bad3bA
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
Little John
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Post by Little John »

Wasters
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ReserveGrowthRulz
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Post by ReserveGrowthRulz »

woodburner wrote:They have generated some favourable publicity for themselves ahead of the program.

https://youtu.be/HA7w9Bad3bA
How wonderfully....childish?
Little John
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Post by Little John »

Aye. Woodburner was being sarcastic. You may have got that. In which case, my apologies if so.
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