P/S Forums - a little negative feedback

fishertrop · Post by **fishertrop** » 02 Aug 2005, 15:18

I recently directed an aquientence of mine to the PowerSwitch site and esp the forums.

This person is a free-thinking liberal, open to the concept of Peak Oil.

She was somewhat put off tho by her first encounter with the P/S forums and reluctant to return.

The cause of this? She happened to read a bunch of "total collapse" and "fighting in the streets" threads.

Whilst seasoned peakers know that such unpleasent subject should be discussed freely, we should also recognise the impact that such can have on new visitors to the site and the subject.

I wondered how many other toe-in-the-water visitors had been put off by the stark terror in some of the threads?

What can we do about this?

I was thinking that we could maybe create an "introduction" thread, or a newbie thread with a sticky that keeps it at the top of the first subject group, or even a subject area for introductions only (at the top of the forums page, so it's the first one in the list) maybe?

I'm sure there are many forum members who could kick off and contribute to threads aimed at introducing people further to the subject of P/O without turning them right off with a summary of Olduvai !

Many of you will probably agree that one of the main barriers to raising PO awareness is a reluctance for people to accept such a huge and unpleasent concept.

Furthermore you might agree that an easy introduction is more likely to lead to sustained interest rather than a bolt-of-lightening-to-the-head initial contact with the topic...

What do people think??

PowerswitchClive · Post by **PowerswitchClive** » 02 Aug 2005, 16:19

I agree with you fishertrop, talk of society collapsing can be very off putting to any newbie, it is also an idea that I find difficult to comes to terms with and I have known about peak oil for years. It is also I think unlikely (says he hopefully) to happen over night. What is more real, I think is to compare how we might be in 10-20years to how Russia was at the end of the cold war.
What may be likely is temporary dislocations that come with shortages.
The forums were set up though to allow us all to discuss Peak Oil and the related topics in any which way we wanted (without being rude to an others views). I can quite imagine that some of the talk of economic and population crash are hard to stomach for anyone, put perhaps we shouldn't be introducing newbies to the forums until after they have done a bit of their own study and come to their own conclusions.

What do you think?

peaky · Post by **peaky** » 02 Aug 2005, 19:41

I think the idea of an introductory thread as a sticky and with a specific link from the front page would be helpful. Certainly you would't make Brecht your first outing to the theatre!

fishertrop · Post by **fishertrop** » 02 Aug 2005, 19:52

PowerswitchClive wrote:..perhaps we shouldn't be introducing newbies to the forums until after they have done a bit of their own study and come to their own conclusions.

Perhaps you are right Clive.

We certainly should not be curtailing any forum activity, that is for sure.

I think tho that some people get more from entering into a debate with others, rather than reading masses of papers and news stories (wheat and chaff seperation also required).

For forum-savvy, regular web users a comprehensive and busy forum is an enticing place to visit, but perhaps there is no real way of avoiding the shock that happened in this (and maybe other) cases.

Do you think there is any value in a prominent "newbie" section on the forums?

I suppose we could set one up and see how many hits it gets??

Bandidoz · Post by **Bandidoz** » 02 Aug 2005, 20:05

I'd be a little cautious since promoting hope can lead to the procrastination that is currently rife amongst society in their consensus trance.

If you were to introduce a two-level forum, then you'd have to use "member-only" sections, by having, say, an "Olduvai" usergroup with a sticky thread somewhere for application.

grinu · Post by **grinu** » 02 Aug 2005, 20:19

If a sticky thread titled, "Intro to......" were at the top of each forum subject (or just the main ones), then I would click on that if it was my first visit.

I suppose it's like stepping into the shallow end of the pool before diving in the deep end - it must be a bit bewildering to comprehend the variety of topics on here if you haven't a general background knowledge of the main issues. I think it would be shame to discourage people from contributing to the forums just because they were new - everyone can have something positive to contribute.

I agree with Fishertrop that it might be good to have a sticky 'intro' post. That's all that would be needed, not two-teir forums or anything crazy.

peaky · Post by **peaky** » 02 Aug 2005, 20:33

I would certainly not advocate a two-tier forum or any change in the nature of the topics or content. Just that in addition to all the usual that there be a simple Intro... as someone has suggested. Exactly like the shallow end before the diving board as has been said.

andyh · Post by **andyh** » 02 Aug 2005, 21:50

I dont agree - folk have to grasp this problem in all its breathtaking nastiness; I think its pointless to try and shield them. Those that will be so easily put off by the fairly logical conclusions as to where this will likely take us aren't likely to get it until its too late anyway, however the message is couched. I've tried a hundred and one ways to bring the subject up with a number of friends and associates and basically find that it is only the scientists amongst them who are open to the idea.

snow hope · Post by **snow hope** » 02 Aug 2005, 22:02

I tend to agree with Andyh. I am sure this forum was not set up to baby-sit people. Some people "get it" very quickly - literally from seconds to minutes and you can almost see it the dawning happen. Others just start to yawn or go straight into denial - they can't see things from a wide enough perspective I suspect.

The idea of Intros in forums for new users is excellent and the analogy of swimming pools and shallow end first is spot-on. We do need to be able to discuss the whole range of issues and their worst case repercussions in here. No point in trying to be gentle over a problem this big......

SherryMayo · Post by **SherryMayo** » 03 Aug 2005, 00:44

I actually agree with the original comment. When learning about peak oil I first was very alarmed (after reading LATOC) and then after reading the forums (especially peakoil.com) I suspected it was all in the imagination of tin-foil-hat wearing conspiracy-theorists. It is only because I was able to read a lot of the scientific literature on the topic (I have access to all the journals through work) that I was eventually convinced there is a really serious problem.

Remember the YK2 bug? This was a potential problem that needed addressing, and there's plenty of room for arguing that it was either overblown, or that all the precautions headed off what could have been a serious problem. However, it was never going to result in TEOTWAWKI*, yet the tin-foil-hat brigade, somehow conflating YK2 with the whole millenialist end-times mindset, were out there preparing their bunkers and crying doom.

A load of peak-oilers saying much the same will lack credibility in the eyes of people at large, particularly since a subset of the peak-oil community is so strongly linked with 9-11 (and now 7-7) conspiracy theorising. Whatever your views on conspiracy theories, I think it is fair to say that the wider community regard them as lacking credibility.

Don't get me wrong, I do think PO is a serious issue. I am however *very* skeptical of a fast-crash to Mad-Max world. A slow stagger into a severe recession & depression is much more likely (possibly with some spectacular stock market crashes on the way. But it will probably happen slowly enough that it will not seem all that surprising at the time. Peak oil and the "energy crisis", or whatever media friendly term it gets known by, will merely be part of common wisdom and the landscape. We will learn to live with frequent power and water cuts just like the poor bastards in Bagdad have, and the "home and garden" TV shows will all be about saving rainwater & greywater, composting toilets and and growing your own veggies

I'm all for free debate about the future, but the nature of that debate *does* affect the credibility of the peak-oil message to newbies whther you like it or not.

*The fact that we even have a common acronym for The End of The World As We Know It says a lot!

Koba · Post by **Koba** » 03 Aug 2005, 01:57

At the end of the day civilization is going to change very soon and it is not going to be voluntary, so what is the point in wanting to sugar-coat the information we have? At this late stage in the game, a crash course in oil depletion is required if you are going to have any hope of a future. If people are put off the subject because they cannot handle the facts then maybe they should not have been here in the first place. Let them live out the last remaining years of our petrol-civilization in ignorant bliss, while those that can handle the truth try and forge a future for themselves.

nancy · Post by **nancy** » 03 Aug 2005, 06:59

Liked your post, Sherry Mayo. When I looked to check who had written these words of wisdom, I noticed you were in Australia, and a woman, with a Dad in the UK - which makes you almost like me - and there sure aren't many of us women Peakniks about.

Keep up the good posts.

rs · Post by rs » 03 Aug 2005, 08:25

I think the main problem we are facing with regards to introducing newbies to PO is that nothing is certain. We have those that believe we will experience a hard and fast crash and others who believe it will be a slow bumpy ride.

The subject is huge and once you delve into it, you start to explore other areas too such as politics, history, terrorism...the list goes on and on!

It really is up to the individual as to how they educate themselves over this. I think an introduction to PO is a great start, and maybe an intro page when they first visit the forums. Maybe something that tries to summarise the types of discussions they will see.

Everyone reacts in their own way to PO. Many will dismiss it straight off, others agree with it but do nothing about it. Then we have those that make immediate changes to their lives and others who are quite fanatical about it!

Which is why I think we should leave the forums as they are, warts and all. Folks will come to terms with PO eventually.

fishertrop · Post by **fishertrop** » 03 Aug 2005, 12:46

It strikes me that the real question I originally rasied is about ideology.

Either we:
1) Let everything appear in it's most purest form and people can take it or leave it and those that leave it can find out the hard way
2) Except that the route to maximum public acceptance and education might involve both stepping stones to full appreciation and a little molycoddling along the way

I don't think you can argue with the fact that you will get more people into the subject if you pander to their initial sensibilites and views and help them take a journey rather than throw the non-swimer off the boat and watch how he fairs.

I'm not that much of a fan of "pandering" and generally would align myself with the first option above.

But my experience with this recomendee has made me reconsider somewhat - if this liberal and open minded person is not initially put off by the one-line concept of Peak Oil, sufficiently intersted to do more research but then put off the whole subject by too much shock then I am thinking the following:
1) How the hell did any of ever get past that stage (!!)
2) You can't have a successful "wake up" strategy without understing this more
3) We should not wonder that PO appreciation in the UK is so low
4) That the "exposing people to the whole unabridged truth in one hit" is a blunt tool with many failures (if some sucesses) if your ultimate aim is public wake-up
5) Chevron's approach might be smarter than it looks when viewed with the masses in mind

If we want purest ivory-tower then we should change nothing.

If we want to maximise turning passing interest into real understanding then I think we need some form of newbie section in the forums.

Powerswitch now has a real image, a presence, on the web - I think we should be maximising the impact of that, not turning away casual interest because we are too elitist to pander in any way.

Any chance one of the site admins sticking me a "create a newbie section in the forums YES/NO" poll on this thread??

PowerswitchClive · Post by **PowerswitchClive** » 03 Aug 2005, 13:36

I still think we are getting away from the purpose of the forums. I am all for putting a sticky at the top of each general section, to introduce the section and ideas contain within, to newbie?s. There is a very comprehensive introduction to the Peak Oil issue on the main site, that is full of non alarmist information. I really feel that if you think it's a bad idea to introduce the uninitiated to the forums, the best policy is don?t!
Perhaps it would be better to set up a section on the main site for people new to peak oil. We could take the information from the Essential Oil, free book and add some of the other material from the other sections on the site. I must admit, the main menu is very comprehensive, but perhaps we need to place a section for new comers at the top and make it obvious.
I just think the forums are the wrong place for this. None of the other forums seem to be bothered about this issue.