Toyota unveils plug-in hybrid, to test on roads

[Aurora]

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlene ... LUGINS.xml

Reuters - 25/07/07

Toyota Motor Corp. unveiled a "plug-in" hybrid car based on its popular Prius model on Wednesday, saying it would test the fuel-saving vehicle on public roads -- a first for the industry.

But the world's biggest automaker said the car, called the Toyota Plug-in HV, was not fit for commercialization since it uses low-energy nickel-metal hydride batteries instead of lithium-ion batteries believed to be a better fit for rechargeable plug-in cars.

Unlike earlier gasoline-electric hybrids, which run on a parallel system twinning battery power and a combustion engine, plug-in cars are designed to enable short trips powered entirely by the electric motor, using a battery that can be charged through an electric socket at home.

Many environmental advocates see them as the best available technology to reduce gasoline consumption and global-warming greenhouse gas emissions, but engineers say battery technology is still insufficient to store enough energy for long-distance travel.

"It's difficult to say when plug-in hybrids could be commercialized, since it would depend largely on advances in battery technology," said Executive Vice President Masatami Takimoto, in charge of Toyota's powertrain technology, told a news conference.

The Toyota Plug-in HV, which is due to be tested also in the United States and Europe, has a cruising range of just 13 km (8 miles) on one charge, even with its trunkful of batteries.

Detroit's General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. are also working on plug-in hybrids, with cooperation from battery makers such as Germany's Continental AG.

(continued)

When will the car manufacturers begin to realise that a 13A, 240V AC socket is not a hydro-carbon free source of power?

[mikepepler]

Of course the interesting thing is that running a car on mains elec is probably cheaper than petrol, once you allow for the higher efficiency of the electric motor compared to the internal combustion engine.

So... if these take off in the UK, how much will elec demand rise, just when we're running short of it?

[Blue Peter]

Of course the interesting thing is that running a car on mains elec is probably cheaper than petrol, once you allow for the higher efficiency of the electric motor compared to the internal combustion engine.

So... if these take off in the UK, how much will elec demand rise, just when we're running short of it?

So, if you burnt all the oil which you had been using to drive your cars in power stations and then fed electric cars, would it be more or less efficient (or about the same)?


Peter.

[mikepepler]

Of course the interesting thing is that running a car on mains elec is probably cheaper than petrol, once you allow for the higher efficiency of the electric motor compared to the internal combustion engine.

So... if these take off in the UK, how much will elec demand rise, just when we're running short of it?

So, if you burnt all the oil which you had been using to drive your cars in power stations and then fed electric cars, would it be more or less efficient (or about the same)?

My guess that it would be about the same, but I have not worked out the numbers. My argument above is purely on price per MJ/kWh and relative efficiency of turning it into kinetic energy.

Of course, the use of electric transport at least opens up the possibility of running vehicles on renewable energy that isn't biofuels, but we'd have a long way to go in building more capacity.

[Bandidoz]

Bigger engines tend to be more efficient, also it's a good way of using "excess" electricity in the grid balancing game.

[fifthcolumn]

Of course the interesting thing is that running a car on mains elec is probably cheaper than petrol, once you allow for the higher efficiency of the electric motor compared to the internal combustion engine.

So... if these take off in the UK, how much will elec demand rise, just when we're running short of it?

Electric motors are so MUCH more efficient than internal combustion engines that even if we ran all our fleet off of coal electric plants, there would be less Co2 emitted than is currently the case.

Moreover, the world is not (yet) at peak coal and it would be an excellent bridge to a renewable future.

All we need is more time. Electric cars are a brilliant match for wind power.

[clv101]

When will the car manufacturers begin to realise that a 13A, 240V AC socket is not a hydro-carbon free source of power?

That's not the point - it is much lower carbon, even if using coal and it decouples the car from oil allowing any primary energy from coal, gas, nuclear to wind and hydro to be used.

So, if you burnt all the oil which you had been using to drive your cars in power stations and then fed electric cars, would it be more or less efficient (or about the same)?

More efficient, by some margin.

I don?t have the reference with me but you could replace all the cars in the UK with electric ones and only need to generate something like 12% more electricity than we do now.

See: www.thehybriddebate.com

I wrote three articles for them:
Can hybrids make a difference in the near future?
The high potential of plug-in hybrids
How lower oil consumption could help the UK economy

[RenewableCandy]

Crikey just think of the TAX REVENUE HMG would lose...

Petrol duty: ooh, 75%?
VAT on electricity: 5%

!!!

[Adam1]

Crikey just think of the TAX REVENUE HMG would lose...

Petrol duty: ooh, 75%?
VAT on electricity: 5%

!!!

Yes, but they'd have the tax benefit of a semblance of a functioning economy!

[fifthcolumn]

Yes, but they'd have the tax benefit of a semblance of a functioning economy!

Exactly.

And that seems to be exactly why the yanks are pushing hybrids for all they're worth, because they are the only remotely feasible option to let the US continue it's happy motoring fairytale.

Interestingly hybrids are a very hard sell in the UK because the non-plugin ones (i.e. the only one's that are currently available) are no better than diesel for fuel consumption and are more expensive.

Too bad the only logical argument is: yeah, but diesels won't RUN if there are fuel shortages.

Then you have to let the bugbear out of the bag and tell people about peak-oil which would fill up the emergency wards pretty quickly with all the heart attack victims.

So we have to sell the UK on the "green" credentials of the hybrid instead.
Which is tough, because a non-plug-in hybrid is no more green than a diesel.

So folks, we might end up in the unenviable position of not being able to catch up fast enough because the UK public doesn't know the real reason why they HAVE TO go to hybrids if they want to keep on driving.

[Adam1]

I think that, if we don't collapse so far that we are unable to invest in significant quantities of new renewables-based energy generation, allied with conservation technology/behaviour, the plug-in hybrid could be a part of a response to PO and CC.

In energy terms, we would get the best energy bang for our buck if the technology was applied to buses and coaches, as they are still intrinsically more efficient than private vehicles per passenger mile.

It would also work with George Monbiot's idea of having filling stations where you could hot swap your discharged batteries with charged up ones. The batteries would need to be of one or two standard specs for the system to work, the same as we currently only have a small number of fuels sold at petrol stations. A standard battery would be easier to re-cycle and re-furbish. That way, the liquid fuel could gradually become an emergency reserve held in the vehicle, in case you couldn't get any batteries or for use in overtaking or going uphill, where the power needed was more than the electric engine could supply.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

Any chance of a plug-in diesel hybrid soon?

[kenneal - lagger]

If the construction of the vehicle was changed from steel to say carbon fibre/plastic, the weight reduction would save a huge amount of fuel/battery life. With newer battery technologies, lighter weight will also help. Perhaps we should be able, in the future, to hire an extra battery bank if we were contemplating a long journey, to save the energy of lugging unnecessary weight around for most of the time.

The biggest problem with vehicles now, though, are that they are related to the size of our egos. A large ego should attract a very high tax. Hundreds of pounds are not enough e.g.

Ka - no ANNUAL tax
Fiesta - ?500
Focus - ?1000
Mondeo - ?2000
Galaxy/small SUV - ?4000
Ranger (light truck) - ?8000 (with rebate for RELEVANT business use)
Jaguar/ BMW/ Audi/ large SUV(with rebate for RELEVANT business use(4X4 ONLY)) - ?8000
Clarkson cars(Ferrarris etc) - ?16000+

If that didn't make a difference to registrations double it until car registrations were noticeably different.

[clv101]

We're saved!! 2008 Green Car of the Year. Meet the 2008 Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid, it gets a whole 21mpg (US).

http://www.greencar.com/features/2008greencar/

[JohnB]

We're saved!! 2008 Green Car of the Year. Meet the 2008 Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid, it gets a whole 21mpg (US).

http://www.greencar.com/features/2008greencar/

21 mpg is not too bad for "eight passengers, a 60 cubic foot cargo volume with the second and third row seats folded, the ability to carry up to 1400 pounds of cargo, and a tow rating of up to 6,200 pounds". I'm sure the owners would use a small car when there was just the driver, no cargo and not towing anything! Or am I being very naive?