Times OnLine - 04/06/10
Network Rail has singled out electrification of railway lines as a major area of investment that could be cut back as public sector spending is squeezed.
The £1 billion electrification of the main rail route between London and Wales and a line between Liverpool and Manchester was announced by Labour last summer.
Electric trains are quieter, cleaner, more reliable and faster. At the time, Lord Adonis, then Transport Secretary, said that electrifying lines would pay for itself over 40 years but that it was important to invest upfront in railways.
Iain Coucher, chief executive of Network Rail, the infrastructure operator responsible for maintaining and upgrading most of the UK’s overground railway, said yesterday: “If the Government wants to phase spending, we can slow down some big projects. Electrification is one such scheme. There is already an inquiry into the purchase of electric trains, so it makes sense to look at that again.”
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Delay electric trains, says Network Rail
Moderator: Peak Moderation
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Aurora
Delay electric trains, says Network Rail
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adam2
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I have mixed feelings about this.
Diesel trains are virtualy 100% reliant on fossil fuels, with all the concerns re depletion, rising prices, and possible shortages due to wars, coups and revolts overseas.
OTOH diesel services are far more resilient, no mass cancelations due to overhead lines falling down, as occurs regularly on existing electrified routes.
Diesel fuel can be easily stored against shortages, unlike electricity.
Diesel trains can be readily diverted in case of engineering work or breakdown, electric trains being less flexible in this respect.
As a regular rail traveller I much prefer 30 year old diesel trains to new electric ones.
The old ones have legroom, luggage space, working toilets, working air conditioning, and even a restaurant.
One could of course build a new electric train with these facilities, but in practice new trains are inferior to old ones as regards passenger comfort.
I believe that most passengers would much prefer a 30 year old diesel high speed train to a new electric virgin pendolino.
There is little enviromental gain in replaceing diesel trains with electric ones, if the power is primarily produced from fossil fuels, as it is at present.
In the near term in the UK, an electricity shortage appears more probable than an oil shortage.
Diesel trains are virtualy 100% reliant on fossil fuels, with all the concerns re depletion, rising prices, and possible shortages due to wars, coups and revolts overseas.
OTOH diesel services are far more resilient, no mass cancelations due to overhead lines falling down, as occurs regularly on existing electrified routes.
Diesel fuel can be easily stored against shortages, unlike electricity.
Diesel trains can be readily diverted in case of engineering work or breakdown, electric trains being less flexible in this respect.
As a regular rail traveller I much prefer 30 year old diesel trains to new electric ones.
The old ones have legroom, luggage space, working toilets, working air conditioning, and even a restaurant.
One could of course build a new electric train with these facilities, but in practice new trains are inferior to old ones as regards passenger comfort.
I believe that most passengers would much prefer a 30 year old diesel high speed train to a new electric virgin pendolino.
There is little enviromental gain in replaceing diesel trains with electric ones, if the power is primarily produced from fossil fuels, as it is at present.
In the near term in the UK, an electricity shortage appears more probable than an oil shortage.
"Installers and owners of emergency diesels must assume that they will have to run for a week or more"
Yeah, but with modification you can stick any old flammable fuel (from veg oil, to producer gas, to sub-standard gasified bunker fuel) into a diesel engine. In contrast if the grid goes down at times of peak demand you get stuck in the middle of the countryside (albeit it you have time to enjoy the view and meditate on the state of things!).
Given the losses inherent in electricity generation the overall difference between oil and electricity motive power isn't that great, so instead we should look to the supply chain reliability of electricity over oil. As the railway is connected to the local grid rather than having its own dedicated trunks it's very difficult to prioritise power to the railway in the same way that you can with oil.
Better still, people could just stop travelling so much and work locally!
Given the losses inherent in electricity generation the overall difference between oil and electricity motive power isn't that great, so instead we should look to the supply chain reliability of electricity over oil. As the railway is connected to the local grid rather than having its own dedicated trunks it's very difficult to prioritise power to the railway in the same way that you can with oil.
Better still, people could just stop travelling so much and work locally!
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RenewableCandy
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It speaks volumes that people refer to the new trains' seating as "bus-style" while the train companies refer to it as "airline style"The old ones have legroom, luggage space, working toilets, working air conditioning, and even a restaurant.
One could of course build a new electric train with these facilities, but in practice new trains are inferior to old ones as regards passenger comfort.
Mind you electric trains are quieter. I didn't know they didn't have their own supply grid. I find that rather scary.
My office is next to the London main line. As I was reading your comment about electric trains being quieter, I realised the reason I was having trouble concentrating was the growl from the diesel locomotive waiting at the signal 15 metres from my open window. My brain tries and fails to block the noise from my conscious thought processes. Electric is definitely quieter....
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RenewableCandy
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adam2
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Electric trains are of two main types, those that use a live conductor rail at about 750 volts DC, and those that use an overhead live wire at about 25,000 volts AC.
Both are supplied from the national grid via dedicated substations.
Dc rail routes have the substations relatively close together, every few miles. Loss of a single substation can be partialy worked around by feeding the section in question from adjacent substations. This will result in appreciable voltage drop, reduced train performance, and risk of overloading/overheating the substations.
For other than a brief interuption it would be usual to limit services, and to use diesel instead of electric power when possible.
Disconection from the grid due to load shedding is unlikely.
AC railways have the substations much furthur apart, and are supplied at higher voltage by the national grid. Breakdowns are rare, and the more important substations would have duplicated grid feeders.
Dissconection of these high voltage feeders is most unlikely in case of power shortages.
Any loss of a substation can managed within limits, by feeding from adjacent sections.
All main line railways are vulnerable to local power cuts, whether rota cuts or simple breakdowns.
Although the traction current should remain on, as noted above, the lack of station lighting, disabled lifts, passenger anouncements etc would normaly lead to closure.
The signaling system is also vulnerable to power cuts.
Many rail facilities have backup power facilities, but these dont allways work, or may not power everything that the "elf an safety" deem to be essiential.
A 45 minute power cut in London, in daylight, closed most of the underground and a fair part of the suburban network for the rest of the day.
Both are supplied from the national grid via dedicated substations.
Dc rail routes have the substations relatively close together, every few miles. Loss of a single substation can be partialy worked around by feeding the section in question from adjacent substations. This will result in appreciable voltage drop, reduced train performance, and risk of overloading/overheating the substations.
For other than a brief interuption it would be usual to limit services, and to use diesel instead of electric power when possible.
Disconection from the grid due to load shedding is unlikely.
AC railways have the substations much furthur apart, and are supplied at higher voltage by the national grid. Breakdowns are rare, and the more important substations would have duplicated grid feeders.
Dissconection of these high voltage feeders is most unlikely in case of power shortages.
Any loss of a substation can managed within limits, by feeding from adjacent sections.
All main line railways are vulnerable to local power cuts, whether rota cuts or simple breakdowns.
Although the traction current should remain on, as noted above, the lack of station lighting, disabled lifts, passenger anouncements etc would normaly lead to closure.
The signaling system is also vulnerable to power cuts.
Many rail facilities have backup power facilities, but these dont allways work, or may not power everything that the "elf an safety" deem to be essiential.
A 45 minute power cut in London, in daylight, closed most of the underground and a fair part of the suburban network for the rest of the day.
"Installers and owners of emergency diesels must assume that they will have to run for a week or more"
There's a whole number of problems with low frequency "impulse" noise that have been identified recently, but which can't be attributed to a single source -- e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGHe7rdq0Ds. It's very difficult to block impulse noise because it's so easily transmitted through buildings/the ground.RenewableCandy wrote:Brains are better at blocking sound than infrasound (idling motors generate infrasound). In my experience anyway.
In the 80s I cycled down to Purbeck and camped near Wool. That night I thought that there must have been a quarry working overnight nearby because of the sound I heard coming from the ground. When I asked at a shop the next day I was told that it was artillery firing on Salisbury Plain 40-odd miles away -- the impulse noise is entrained by the rock layer that runs underground from the Plain and surfaces once again in Purbeck.
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adam2
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This you tube video contains an interesting vintage advert for the then new "inter city 125" trains
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1GqzosW ... re=related
Only the first class carriages are shown in the advert, and they are almost the same today. A few services still retain full restaurant service, allegedly mainly for MPs !
The second class carriages have been "modernised" by removing most of the tables and installing high density bus seats, though they are still a bit better than a new train.
P.S. the end of the video is interesting, if anyone wishes to comment on it, it may be better to start a new thread, not take this one off topic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1GqzosW ... re=related
Only the first class carriages are shown in the advert, and they are almost the same today. A few services still retain full restaurant service, allegedly mainly for MPs !
The second class carriages have been "modernised" by removing most of the tables and installing high density bus seats, though they are still a bit better than a new train.
P.S. the end of the video is interesting, if anyone wishes to comment on it, it may be better to start a new thread, not take this one off topic.
"Installers and owners of emergency diesels must assume that they will have to run for a week or more"
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raspberry-blower
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Adam2
http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/vie ... 726#136726
I've posted a thread here:P.S. the end of the video is interesting, if anyone wishes to comment on it, it may be better to start a new thread, not take this one off topic.
http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/vie ... 726#136726
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools - Douglas Adams.
Same thing: planes have "bus-style" seating. But at least if you travel by bus you don't have to suffer the indignities of passing through "security". I suppose the main reason people take discretionary flights is that the advertisements tell them to.RenewableCandy wrote:It speaks volumes that people refer to the new trains' seating as "bus-style" while the train companies refer to it as "airline style"