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The car that makes its own fuel

Posted: 26 Oct 2005, 08:25
by PowerSwitchJames
http://www.physorg.com/printnews.php?newsid=7499



The car that makes its own fuel



A unique system that can produce Hydrogen inside a car using common metals such as Magnesium and Aluminum was developed by an Israeli company. The system solves all of the obstacles associated with the manufacturing, transporting and storing of hydrogen to be used in cars. When it becomes commercial in a few years time, the system will be incorporated into cars that will cost about the same as existing conventional cars to run, and will be completely emission free.


As President Bush urges Americans to cut back on the use of oil in wake of the recent surge in prices, more and more people are looking for more viable alternatives to the use of petroleum as the main fuel for the automotive industry. IsraCast recently covered the idea developed at the Weizmann Institute to use pure Zinc to produce Hydrogen using solar power. Now, a different solution has been developed by an Israeli company called Engineuity. Amnon Yogev, one of the two founders of Engineuity, and a retired Professor of the Weizmann Institute, suggested a method for producing a continuous flow of Hydrogen and steam under full pressure inside a car. This method could also be used for producing hydrogen for fuel cells and other applications requiring hydrogen and/or steam.

The Hydrogen car Engineuity is working on will use metals such as Magnesium or Aluminum which will come in the form of a long coil. The gas tank in conventional vehicles will be replaced by a device called a Metal-Steam combustor that will separate Hydrogen out of heated water. The basic idea behind the technology is relatively simple: the tip of the metal coil is inserted into the Metal-Steam combustor together with water where it will be heated to very high temperatures. The metal atoms will bond to the Oxygen from the water, creating metal oxide. As a result, the Hydrogen molecules are free, and will be sent into the engine alongside the steam.
The solid waste product of the process, in the form of metal oxide, will later be collected in the fuel station and recycled for further use by the metal industry.

Refuelling the car based on this technology will also be remarkably simple. The vehicle will contain a mechanism for rolling the metal wire into a coil during the process of fuelling and the spent metal oxide, which was produced in the previous phase, will be collected from the car by vacuum suction.



Beside the obvious advantages of the system, such as the inexpensive and abundant fuel, the production of Hydrogen on-the-go and the zero emission engine, the system is also more efficient than other Hydrogen solutions. The main reason for this is the improved usage of heat (steam) inside the system that brings that overall performance level of the vehicle to that of a conventional car. In an interview, Professor Yogev told IsraCast that a car based on Engineuity's system will be able to travel about the same distance between refueling as an equivalent conventional car. The only minor drawback, which also limits the choice of possible metal fuel sources, is the weight of the coil. In order for the Hydrogen car to be able to travel as far as a conventional car it needs a metal coil three-times heavier than an equivalent petrol tank. Although this sound like a lot in most cars this will add up to about 100kg (220 pounds) and should not affect the performance of the car.

Engineuity is currently in the advanced stages of the incubator program of the Chief Scientist in Israel, and is seeking investors that will allow it to develop a full scale prototype. Given the proper investment the company should be able to develop the prototype in about three years. The move to Hydrogen based cars using Engineuity's technology will require only relatively minor changes from the car manufacturer's point of view. Since the modified engine can be produced using existing production lines, removing the need for investment in new infrastructures (the cost of which is estimated at billions of dollars), the new Hydrogen cars would not be more expensive. Although Engineuity's Hydrogen car will not be very different from existing conventional cars, the company is not currently planning an upgrade kit for existing cars but is concentrating on building a system that will be incorporated into new car models.

Possibly the most appealing aspect of the system is the running cost. According to Yogev, the overall running cost of the system should be equal to that of conventional cars today. Given the expected surge in oil prices in the near future Engineuity's Hydrogen car could not come too soon.

Posted: 26 Oct 2005, 10:02
by MacG
Another hoax. I expect quite an avalanche of these in the years to come.

Aluminium and magnesium only occur in oxidized form in nature. In order to reduce them to pure metal, it is neccesary to use... energy! It is exactly that energy which is later released when the metal is oxidized. And efficiencies are pretty lousy for these kind of processes. As a curiosity, I actually got a PhD in electrochemistry.

Posted: 26 Oct 2005, 10:15
by Bootstrapper
I agree with MacG.

Another point:
The basic idea behind the technology is relatively simple: the tip of the metal coil is inserted into the Metal-Steam combustor together with water where it will be heated to very high temperatures. The metal atoms will bond to the Oxygen from the water, creating metal oxide. As a result, the Hydrogen molecules are free, and will be sent into the engine alongside the steam.
What heats the water?

Paul

Re: The car that makes its own fuel

Posted: 26 Oct 2005, 10:35
by skeptik
PowerSwitchJames wrote: In order for the Hydrogen car to be able to travel as far as a conventional car it needs a metal coil three-times heavier than an equivalent petrol tank. Although this sound like a lot in most cars this will add up to about 100kg (220 pounds) and should not affect the performance of the car.
An extra 220lbs kerb weight wont affect the performance of the car? ... and pigs might fly. Add weight and it takes more energy to move it. Basic physics. That really is misleading journo blather of the worst sort.

This is nonsense. The only advantage this system has is that it's inherently safer than carting about a tank of hydrogen. Energetically its a non-starter.

Too many stages involving losses. Making Aluminium requires a lot of electricity, and making & distributing electricity is not exactly an energy efficient process to start with.

Another point...

In a conventional car, performance improves as the weight of fuel carried decreases as it is burnt and the result expelled via the exhaust pipe. With this system the car is always carrying a large weight of either metal or metal oxide - the weight of which never decreases.
Given the expected surge in oil prices in the near future Engineuity's Hydrogen car could not come too soon.
Makes you want to weep. When will these numnuts journalists realise that it all connects? Or grasp the difference between a fuel and an energy resourse? - Hydrogen being the first but not the latter.

Did it even enter his mind that the rising price of oil might somehow impact the price of magnesium or aluminium?

Posted: 26 Oct 2005, 13:08
by revdode
Bootstrapper wrote: What heats the water?
It's not clear from the artcile but I'd imagine the oxidation of the magnesium or aluminium does the job.
An exciting process but not one that could replace the conventional internal combustion engine for all the reasons already mentioned. I would guess that you would also require a fair sized water reservoir unless all of the vapour in the exhaust was re-captured, something that seems unlikely. Again this would add more weight, as would therather chunky (I hope) reaction chamber.

The most important line in the article for me is this one.
Engineuity is currently in the advanced stages of the incubator program of the Chief Scientist in Israel, and is seeking investors that will allow it to develop a full scale prototype
I'll file this under interesting idea seeks new home, preferably penthouse suite with hot and cold running cash.
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Re: The car that makes its own fuel

Posted: 26 Oct 2005, 15:36
by mikepepler
As MacG said, these metals only occur in their oxidised state in nature. There's a small admission of this fatal flaw in the article:
PowerSwitchJames wrote: The solid waste product of the process, in the form of metal oxide, will later be collected in the fuel station and recycled for further use by the metal industry.
So, each car is going to produce upwards of 100kg of metal oxides every few weeks.... where on earth is the infrastructure to handle that?!?!? And where is the energy to turn it from oxide back to metal?!?!?

I almost think we need a special website (or a section of ours?) to show these con men up for what they are, seeing as there are so many of them now. Their designs may appear to work, but when you look at the big picture they are energy sinks, not sources, and dangerous distractions from the real issues of Peak Oil and Global Warming.

Re: The car that makes its own fuel

Posted: 26 Oct 2005, 20:49
by MacG
mikepepler wrote: I almost think we need a special website (or a section of ours?) to show these con men up for what they are, seeing as there are so many of them now. Their designs may appear to work, but when you look at the big picture they are energy sinks, not sources, and dangerous distractions from the real issues of Peak Oil and Global Warming.
I second that! There were a lot of hoaxes (and honest misconceptions) floating around in the 1970's, and I think we could expect the same this time. Why not a heading "Energy hoaxes and misconceptions"?

Posted: 26 Oct 2005, 22:55
by snow hope
Well I am extremely pleased to see that there are people on here who are well enough qualified / experienced to determine what is a hoax and what is not, or alternatively what is realistic and what is all theory that is unlikely to materialise. The top post by James had me fooled...... so thanks for your great input guys. :)

Posted: 26 Oct 2005, 23:42
by SherryMayo
Actually I don't think it is a hoax as such - they are just using energy intensive metals as a medium to store energy rather than hydrogen to get around hydrogen storage problems (the fact they convert the energy to hydrogen via steam reformation is just a minor detail) . However I agree that the colossal amount of Al or Mg required makes it a rather unpromising proposal - plus you need to have the oxide recycling as part of the infrastructure.

As an energy storage solution I'm sure there are easier ways - I'd like to know the energy efficiency (energy to wheels) of the whole process relative to alternatives. However other energy storage methods like batteries also require large amounts of raw materials.

Posted: 27 Oct 2005, 06:38
by genoxy
revdode wrote:
Bootstrapper wrote: What heats the water?
It's not clear from the artcile but I'd imagine the oxidation of the magnesium or aluminium does the job.
Here's the link to their webpage - it states just what you speculate above!

http://engineuitycoil.nationprotect.net/system.htm

Posted: 27 Oct 2005, 07:52
by mikepepler
SherryMayo wrote:Actually I don't think it is a hoax as such
Sure, it's not a hoax in that it could work. Where it is a hoax is that it is being announced as the "car that makes its own fuel", and made to look like an energy source rather than an energy carrier. The nature of the hoax in this one is the presentation, rather than the technical detail.

Posted: 27 Oct 2005, 08:03
by SherryMayo
Sure, it's not a hoax in that it could work. Where it is a hoax is that it is being announced as the "car that makes its own fuel", and made to look like an energy source rather than an energy carrier. The nature of the hoax in this one is the presentation, rather than the technical detail.
I see what you mean. I think this is a general problem with reading about science/tech via the media - everything has to be couched in terms of "breakthrough", "energy saviour" and other such bullshit. The sad thing is that the communications people working for sci-tech organisations increasingly write their press releases this way to get them picked up by the press. :?

Posted: 27 Oct 2005, 08:24
by fishertrop
Gen up on the Magnesium trade here http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=1801

I read the original article via peakoil.com, when I had finished it I immediately thought 3 things:
1) Isn't most of the world Aluminium made from bauxite in a VERY energy-intensive process ( http://www.world-aluminium.org/production/index.html ) ??
2) Peak magnesium
3) The fact that so many people buy into concepts such as this (and hydrogen for another example) makes me think we'll have a big crash not a soft landing to the wider peak-energy issues - people just can't seem to get to grips with the big EROEI picture

The aritcle Chris blogged about wrt peak-light-sweet not long ago really brought home to me that "good old days" WTI-type oil blasting itself out of the ground under huge self-pressure, that needed very little drilling and piping to get to refinaries was THE BIG CAHOONER in terms of cheap energy - everything else is downhill from there, everything else needs a LOT more energy to produce, and a lot of it might never even get out of the ground...

Posted: 27 Oct 2005, 11:04
by Bootstrapper
From the website:
In this way, both the chemical energy stored in the Hydrogen and the thermal energy produced by the reaction of the metal with water, are utilized.
Granted, a Magnesium/Aluminium alloy may react with water and produce heat, but would it be enough to boil the water?

:idea: What about a more reactive metal, like Sodium? It reacts with water quite violently, emiting large volumes of Hydrogen and producing a lot of heat. In labs, Sodium is stored in Kerosene (Parafin) to prevent contact with moisture in the air. :idea:

How energy-intensive is the process of separating Sodium from Chlorine?

<EDIT> By the sound of this, VERY energy-intensive! There's that pesky law of thermodynamics again. The more energy you get out of the metal, the more energy you have to put into making it. :lol:

Paul

Posted: 27 Oct 2005, 12:17
by fishertrop
http://www.world-aluminium.org/environm ... nergy.html
The primary aluminium production process is energy-intensive, but the industry has a long tradition of self-improvement regarding energy consumption and its environmental performance........
I would guess that - like refining - magnesium and aluminium production capacity are more or less balanced with current demand.

So any meaningful upsurge in demand would - after any slack has been taken up - be hit with a lack of production capacity, probably leading to much higher prices for the product, sound reasonable?

I'm no expert but I'd guess any significant expansion of existing or new processing plants would be both capital intensive and time consuming.

This would likely lead to a prolong period of high prices, effectively killing off this car as a consumer choice.

The knock on effects on (say) the price of drinks cans, might lead to some intersting side effects....