The return of the horse

Our transport is heavily oil-based. What are the alternatives?

Moderator: Peak Moderation

User avatar
Keela
Posts: 1941
Joined: 05 Sep 2006, 15:26
Location: N.Ireland
Contact:

Re: A question...

Post by Keela »

skeptik wrote:A couple of questions for horse owners.

How many acres of land does it take to support one shire horse - with no other external inputs?

How many man hours a week does it take to look after one, and it's tackle?
I keep 7 horses/ponies here on 14 acres. None are bigger than 15.2hh and they range down in steps to 11.2hh! None would come close to the body mass of a Shire - let me guess 3 Shires to my 7.

However 14 acres is a little in excess as I usually make hay off their winter pasture each summer and have extra to sell on top of what they get fed in winter. So possibly 3 to 4 acres for a Shire. Although it all depends on your land etc.etc.

These horses only get extra feed when they are in hard work or if one is not maintaining weight. At present only the Arab is getting additional bucket feeding.

So a smaller area could be used with more bought in feed.

Not sure that answers your question...

Here are some of my ponies....
Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Okay I got a little carried away there! ...... Not 'working' horses in the sense of the thread... but we do do some long distance riding for sport.

Sal
User avatar
skeptik
Posts: 2969
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Costa Geriatrica, Spain

Re: A question...

Post by skeptik »

Sally wrote:
skeptik wrote:A couple of questions for horse owners.

How many acres of land does it take to support one shire horse - with no other external inputs?

How many man hours a week does it take to look after one, and it's tackle?
I keep 7 horses/ponies here on 14 acres. None are bigger than 15.2hh and they range down in steps to 11.2hh! None would come close to the body mass of a Shire - let me guess 3 Shires to my 7.

However 14 acres is a little in excess as I usually make hay off their winter pasture each summer and have extra to sell on top of what they get fed in winter. So possibly 3 to 4 acres for a Shire. Although it all depends on your land etc.etc.

These horses only get extra feed when they are in hard work or if one is not maintaining weight. At present only the Arab is getting additional bucket feeding.

So a smaller area could be used with more bought in feed.

Not sure that answers your question...
Thank you Sally. A useful 'ball park' indicator.

Could you guess how many person-hours a week it would take to look after a working shire horse, including cleaning and maintaining its tackle?

- Im excluding the time actually working the horse e.g. time spent behind the plough with it - just the hours spent looking after the horse, brushing its teeth, cutting and storing feed, polishing its bridle, fitting new shoes, shovelling it's poo - whatever it is you have to do with a horse
User avatar
biffvernon
Posts: 18538
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Lincolnshire
Contact:

Post by biffvernon »

Sadly and unromantically, I suspect that growing wheat, turning it into ethanol and pouring it into a tractor will get more farming done than growing hay and letting a heavy horse eat it.

The other Jethro Tull was and still is Ian Anderson with a great number of musicians he has hired and fired over the decades. The band has had a constantly changing lineup. The Incredible String Band were, essentially, Mike Heron and Robin Williamson. They disbanded long ago but do occasionally come together again. Robin has recently released an album that Verity Sharp has been playing regularly on Radio 3 Late Junction recently. The ISB were the most wondrous musical phenomenon of their (perhaps all) time but it would be pointless to expect anyone whose musically formative years were not spent at that particular point of the spatio-temporal multiverse to appreciate that.
User avatar
Andy Hunt
Posts: 6760
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Bury, Lancashire, UK

Post by Andy Hunt »

biffvernon wrote: The ISB were the most wondrous musical phenomenon of their (perhaps all) time but it would be pointless to expect anyone whose musically formative years were not spent at that particular point of the spatio-temporal multiverse to appreciate that.
Yeah man . . . I can dig that.

:wink:
Andy Hunt
http://greencottage.burysolarclub.net
Eternal Sunshine wrote: I wouldn't want to worry you with the truth. :roll:
User avatar
Keela
Posts: 1941
Joined: 05 Sep 2006, 15:26
Location: N.Ireland
Contact:

Re: A question...

Post by Keela »

skeptik wrote:Thank you Sally. A useful 'ball park' indicator.

Could you guess how many person-hours a week it would take to look after a working shire horse, including cleaning and maintaining its tackle?

- Im excluding the time actually working the horse e.g. time spent behind the plough with it - just the hours spent looking after the horse, brushing its teeth, cutting and storing feed, polishing its bridle, fitting new shoes, shovelling it's poo - whatever it is you have to do with a horse
Okay - this is a tough one - so I'm going to give you a bit of a story.

A few years ago I decided to start painting and bought some water colours. My father-in-law (an artist) gave me a few starters and as he did so painted an amazing picture in only a couple of minutes. I made some comment about the 2 mins it had taken him to create the image and he corrected me, "Not two minutes Sally, twenty-five years working with paint!"

So if you are used to working with horses and looking after them then the time input may be quite low most of the time. However if you are novice to the job, then learning about it (what to notice etc.) will take a lot more time....

I am lucky I have been brought up around horses and ponies and so now much of what I do with them is second nature and because I love it I don't count the time cost ....

However even with that, when we buy a new horse there is another whole new learning curve and a greater time input until this horse is settled (and understood by me). Training as a team is very time consuming.

How you choose to care for your horse will also affect the time scale.
A horse cannot be just left in a field for the whole year. Although mine all live out 24/7 (sometimes assisted with weather proof rugs) I am permanently watching each horse and adjusting conditions for each one.

The best way to get a feel for the timescales would be to start working around horses yourself.....

Sorry I can't be more specific!

Sal
User avatar
skeptik
Posts: 2969
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Costa Geriatrica, Spain

Re: A question...

Post by skeptik »

Sally wrote: The best way to get a feel for the timescales would be to start working around horses yourself.....

Sorry I can't be more specific!

Sal
Thanks, but no thanks! I dont like horses all that much and they dont like me. They always seem to want to tread on my feet whenever I get anywhere near them.

Fine.. I think I'm getting the picture. Not exactly like a tractor you can shove in the garage and forget about when you're not using it. More of a way of life.
User avatar
Keela
Posts: 1941
Joined: 05 Sep 2006, 15:26
Location: N.Ireland
Contact:

Re: A question...

Post by Keela »

skeptik wrote:
Sally wrote: The best way to get a feel for the timescales would be to start working around horses yourself.....

Sorry I can't be more specific!

Sal
Thanks, but no thanks! I dont like horses all that much and they dont like me. They always seem to want to tread on my feet whenever I get anywhere near them.

Fine.. I think I'm getting the picture. Not exactly like a tractor you can shove in the garage and forget about when you're not using it. More of a way of life.
:) :lol: :lol: Definately a way of life.....
User avatar
jonny2mad
Posts: 2453
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: weston super mare

Post by jonny2mad »

how much ground would you need to grow enough to keep a tractor going also the energy for its replacement costs making replacement parts , the amish are able to still exist using horses today with low fuel prices

I think in a fuel poor world horses have advantages over tractors , thank god for the people who saved a lot of heavy horse breeds becoming extinct .

we dont know how things will pan out but if you have smallholders who still use the horse know how to plow , I think it could come in very handy I never used my horse for plowing but used to have him pulling a cart and he quite liked it .

if you have horses kept as pets as lots of people keep them now, wouldnt it be better to do some farm work with them now and then , every job you do with a horse saves fuel.

If I get another horse I intend doing some plowing with him ,another tool I like a lot for inter row hoeing is the old planet wheel hoe I have about six of them and some jalo hoes (but I prefer the planet hoes) Ive picked up and they just use manpower in fact on small pieces of ground you can do hoeing by hand .

The planet hoe used to have a seeder as well and a ridger ,mine are mostly edwardian and easy to repair and keep going and its better exercise than spending money down the gym

fine horses sally :D
User avatar
Keela
Posts: 1941
Joined: 05 Sep 2006, 15:26
Location: N.Ireland
Contact:

Post by Keela »

We have talked of getting a plough! The little coloured pony pulls a cart - I have even collected the children from school in this (but not often).
I think in a fuel poor world horses have advantages over tractors , thank god for the people who saved a lot of heavy horse breeds becoming extinct .
It's the skills gap that will take time to fill. I know nothing about ploughing except what I've seen growing up in the country - nothing first hand!

S
fine horses sally
Thanks. :)
simonrichards912
Posts: 76
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland

Post by simonrichards912 »

The speed with which we see a return to animal agriculture may well depend on what effect PO has on Finance. If the system goes into meltdown as some predict, then we could see animals return soon after the Peak when it becomes impossible to buy oil and spares. Don't forget that oil companies only produce oil to make a profit. If the financial system collapses, who's going to produce and refine oil?
Money is the root of all evil
User avatar
Erik
Posts: 1544
Joined: 21 Sep 2006, 17:17
Location: Spain

Post by Erik »

simonrichards912 wrote:The speed with which we see a return to animal agriculture may well depend on what effect PO has on Finance. If the system goes into meltdown as some predict, then we could see animals return soon after the Peak when it becomes impossible to buy oil and spares.
I wonder just how quickly we can suddenly increase the horse population to satisfy such demand? And apart from the horses themselves (and their food), there may be other bottlenecks. I dunno, take horseshoes for example - How easy will it be to increase output from blacksmiths, train new blacksmiths, get the raw materials for them? Maybe jonny2mad and sally have some idea on this?
User avatar
Pippa
Site Admin
Posts: 687
Joined: 27 Apr 2006, 11:07
Location: Cambridgeshire

Post by Pippa »

We haven't got enough land here in the UK to support horses for working on the land and have land to grow food for human consumption.

You generally need 1 1/2 to 2 acres per horse. In the olden days many working horses were kept in (or in small paddocks) from spring to autumn and fed on grain, chaff (chopped up straw) and hay. The grass would grow in spring and summer to be stored for feeding thoughout the year. In many regions in the UK land wasn't extensively farmed either because of the weather, soil or land conditions - mountainous parts of Wales, high ground in Yorkshire and Scotland. These areas were kept grassed, at least with grass you don't have the problems associated with storing the seed, planting and having a successful harvest. All you have to do is let sheep roam about and then catch and kill them - not nearly so complicated.

A horse is pregnant for the same length of time as humans, 9 months.

Once the horse is born you need to leave them to grow up for 3 years before they are capable of work or you risk damaging their development and strength.

When I first heard of PO I dreamed of teaching my two horses to pull ploughs etc. Getting horses back on the land would mean replacing all the current farm machinery - no small task in itself - especially for a country that doesn't know about the future problems we face. We couldn't dismantle the ploughs used by tractors because they are far to big and heavy (blade by blade the go too deep and the horse wouldn't be able to pull it nor would the handler be able to guide it). Then we would need all the other horse powered equipment including drills and harrows, potato seeders, harvesters and thrashers, carts etc etc.

How I really don't see that we are going to be able to do this and think that we are much more likely to see horses being turfed out of pastures in order that we can either raise more cattle and sheep for human consumption or so that the land can be used for the production of grain and food or in the production of crops for ethanol or oil.


Maybe for the timebeing those with horses who are PO aware could train their horses to plough and help people with their allotments and market gardens. We would still need to obtain quite alot of new equipment from somewhere (maybe the new eastern european countries who are now entering the european union and abandoning their old horse driven agriculture).

Horses don't actually need shoes to work as long as they are managed naturally. Horses were first shod en mass when they were bought in from the land and stabled; the amonia in the urine soaked bedding weakened the horn in the hoof meaning that the horses often went lame. How, however, although it is possible (and often preferable) to have a horse go without shoes it would not be able to if it was working alot on our roads as the hoof would simply wear too quickly. The management of horses being used without shoes is generally less onerous than with, simply because you do not need the regular skill of the blacksmith and can rely on the skill of the horseman (largely).


Where I live huge amounts of rape and borage are grown for oil production; its very colourful in the early summer.
User avatar
biffvernon
Posts: 18538
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Lincolnshire
Contact:

Post by biffvernon »

There are a few special situations where horses are viable today. In small forestry work horses can be used for extracting timber more effectively and with less damage to the ground than tractors.
Blue Peter
Posts: 1939
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Milton Keynes

Post by Blue Peter »

Pippa wrote: Where I live huge amounts of rape and borage are grown for oil production; its very colourful in the early summer.
I didn't know that they used borage for oil production. What sort of oil does it produce?


Peter.
User avatar
Pippa
Site Admin
Posts: 687
Joined: 27 Apr 2006, 11:07
Location: Cambridgeshire

Post by Pippa »

[quote="Blue Peter]
I didn't know that they used borage for oil production. What sort of oil does it produce?


Peter.[/quote]

I don't know!!!!!

I assume it goes into general veggie oil but I'll ask my local farmer who grows it.

(now I am wondering if it is borage - anyway it has intensely blue and lumiinous flowers which are breathtakingly beautiful en mass).
Post Reply