Electric cars struggle to spark enthusiasm

DominicJ · Post by **DominicJ** » 19 Jan 2011, 15:04

Is there nothing else you could build a road from?
I thought most motorways were concrete?

Pepperman · Post by **Pepperman** » 19 Jan 2011, 15:20

Biomen? Biophalt? I guess it could be possible but I imagine it's gonna take a fair bit of bio to knock up a road.

The paper pulp industry produces some pretty viscous, heavy stuff called black liquor which the Swedes are currently tesing as a vehicle fuel in the form of BioDME but it might make a good road surface.

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 19 Jan 2011, 15:48

Tar is the only real innovation in road design in 2000 years.

Only the surface layer of tarmac roads has tar in it. Concrete can be used, but concrete production is also energy intensive, and is a poorer quality surface. It has very poor drainage...

I don't see any other source of tar being practical, although last year one organisation claimed to have developed a microbe that turned biomass to tar in situ, or something similar. Takes months though... so only useful for new build.

In the US some states have started reverting rural tarmac roads to gravel tracks.

Maintaining roads is energy intensive, whatever it is made of. All these high tech low profile fuel efficient vehicles and even bicycles are going to become seriously unstuck when most roads are more pothole than tar.

SUVs and model T fords are the vehicles most likely to survive.

If asphalt is $500 /tonne, that is approx. 1 cubic metre. Or $0.50 / litre.
Petrol is about $1/litre in the US.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 19 Jan 2011, 15:50

When I was young road surfaces used to come from here in Trinidad -
http://www.richard-seaman.com/Travel/Tr ... PitchLake/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_Lake

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 19 Jan 2011, 15:55

RalphW wrote:SUVs and model T fords are the vehicles most likely to survive.

I've been thinking of converting an old Disco with a blown up engine that I have into an electric powered car using hub motors. Remove the engine and transmission, put the batteries into the engine bay and a hub motor on each hub and you have a 4WD electric all terrain vehicle with very similar weight distribution to an ordinary Disco.

I've got no further than thinking about it though.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 19 Jan 2011, 15:58

Another slight problem; you'd only get .75 of an average 'merican into it.

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 19 Jan 2011, 16:09

That much, eh?

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 19 Jan 2011, 16:17

That pitch lake contains, at an upper limit, 750,000 tons of pitch.

That is about 5 million barrels, which would supply the world with tar for maybe as much as 2 days!

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 19 Jan 2011, 16:31

kenneal wrote:I've been thinking of converting an old Disco with a blown up engine that I have into an electric powered car using hub motors. Remove the engine and transmission, put the batteries into the engine bay and a hub motor on each hub and you have a 4WD electric all terrain vehicle with very similar weight distribution to an ordinary Disco.

I've got no further than thinking about it though.

Is that the big project for the next Green Gathering? It's only slightly more ambitious than the pole lathe at the one before last

.

Post by **adam2** » 19 Jan 2011, 16:32

I dont think that we will run out of tar for road surfacing any time soon.
Tar or bitumen is indeed what is left after the more usefull components of crude oil have been removed.
As crude oil supplies deplete, the remaining supplies are often very heavy crude or tar sands, these contain a greater proportion of tar suitable for road surfacing.

Concrete can be used, but as posted above it is very energy intensive to make.

Heavy vehicles cause very much more road wear than light, AFAIK the wear is roughly proportional to the cube of the weight. Transfering heavy feight to railways or canals or coastal shipping would appreciably reduce road wear.
I suspect that road use may soon peak, and with it demands for tar to maintain roads.
Less traffic could justify downgrading some lightly used roads to gravel tracks, or closing others.
A narrow paved surface is fine for pedestrians and cycles, and long lasting if not used by heavier vehicles.

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 19 Jan 2011, 16:34

kenneal wrote:Another slight problem; you'd only get .75 of an average 'merican into it.

Any vehicle needs a dog seat beside the driver, or in front

.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 19 Jan 2011, 17:56

RalphW wrote:That pitch lake contains, at an upper limit, 750,000 tons of pitch.

That is about 5 million barrels, which would supply the world with tar for maybe as much as 2 days!

According to one of the articles it refills albeit slowly. Abiotic? No, there's loads of oil under Trinidad and plenty of heavy oil across the water in Venezuela.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 19 Jan 2011, 17:58

JohnB wrote:
kenneal wrote:I've been thinking of converting an old Disco with a blown up engine that I have into an electric powered car using hub motors. Remove the engine and transmission, put the batteries into the engine bay and a hub motor on each hub and you have a 4WD electric all terrain vehicle with very similar weight distribution to an ordinary Disco.

I've got no further than thinking about it though.
Is that the big project for the next Green Gathering? It's only slightly more ambitious than the pole lathe at the one before last .

No!

Potemkin Villager · Post by **Potemkin Villager** » 19 Jan 2011, 19:20

Can somebody please remind me exactly why we need so many roads and new cars?

If the number of vehicles, mileage, fuel use, and kilomiles of highway
were reduced by 80 or 90 percent there would be no problem and the present stock of vehicles could be ecologically driven into the ground rather than expending even more fossil energy on building insanely delusional shiny new plastic solvent smelling electric vehicles........

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 19 Jan 2011, 20:06

Roger Adair wrote:Can somebody please remind me exactly why we need so many roads and new cars?

We need a lot of roads, to connect all the homes, work places and settlements in the country. Whether we need big roads is the real question.

PowerSwitch

Electric cars struggle to spark enthusiasm

Re: Electric cars struggle to spark enthusiasm

Re: Electric cars struggle to spark enthusiasm