Energy price cap, domestic and other merged topic

[Vortex2]

from the Telegraph -

new forecasts from the consultancy Auxilione suggested that the energy price cap will top £6,500 a year in April after a fresh surge in gas prices,

Well, that should cause a bit of a fuss ...

[anotherexlurker]

There are plenty of people/families that don't have a disposable annual income of £6500!!

[Vortex2]

There are plenty of people/families that don't have a disposable annual income of £6500!!

This winter is going to be hard for many people.

Brits don't generally do social unrest ... but what will people do in the face of unaffordable/unobtainable food and unaffordable heating plus blackouts?

[clv101]

There are plenty of people/families that don't have a disposable annual income of £6500!!

This winter is going to be hard for many people.

Brits don't generally do social unrest ... but what will people do in the face of unaffordable/unobtainable food and unaffordable heating plus blackouts?

It will expose, in sharp relief, the inequality in the UK as while a lot of people will fall off the unaffordable/unobtainable cliff, a lot won't. It won't be pretty.

[anotherexlurker]

I think all of us expect the level of crime to go through the roof , we don't have a large enough police force , court capacity (even when barristers are not on strike!) or prison or other holding capacity as it is. Shop lifting goes virtually unchallenged as it is. We don't even have much in the way of armed forces as back up anymore.

If I was not an atheist I would pray for a very very mild winter for all of Europe!!!

[clv101]

If I was not an atheist I would pray for a very very mild winter for all of Europe!!!

Knowing our luck... record cold, 4 foot of snow for six weeks...

[automaticearth2]

If I was not an atheist I would pray for a very very mild winter for all of Europe!!!

Knowing our luck... record cold, 4 foot of snow for six weeks...

You need a solid fuel appliance I.e. a stove. That can burn biomass and solid fuels

[Default0ptions]

What I haven’t seen is much (if any) government or non government advice on how to *seriously* reduce or eliminate your heating bill.

How about ‘heat the person, not the house’

Turn off the central heating altogether and sit close to a simple calor gas portable radiant heater

(Other suppliers of bottled gas are available and still reasonably cheap vs the new price for mains gas)

Most people over maybe 40 something plus spent some winters huddled around a radiant gas fire in the main living space and treated it as the norm

I get exasperated by the ludicrous entitlement exhibited by those who weep in despair because heating the entire house to t shirt temperatures for the entire winter will be too expensive

[adam2]

I suspect that the government are reluctant to recommend any specific actions because that suggests some form of crisis. Whereas the government view seems to be that things will soon return to normal.

The other reason is that almost any suggested action will be deemed offensive to some group. Take bottled gas heaters as an example.
Bottled gas is in short supply and hugely expensive.
What about the disabled who can not handle the cylinders.
What about those whose rental agreements specifically prohibit gas heaters.

And of course someone will do something silly and blow themselves up or gas themselves. At present this may be blamed on user stupidity or misuse, but if they were following government advice ? "they said to use a calor gas heater, and now my baby is dead"

I expect an increase in accidents with LPG as it is.
Trying to use the wrong type of regulator or connector.=leaks and explosion.
Drying clothes too close to a radiant heat source.=Fire
Disabling the oxygen sensor on portable heaters, to allow use without ventilation.=Asphyxiation.
Use of heaters not intended for domestic use.
Attempting to use LPG in appliances intended for mains gas use.

And similar accidents with paraffin heaters. Esp those not approved for domestic use.

[adam2]

Facts and figures regarding LPG cylinders. Bottled gas is significantly MORE EXPENSIVE than mains gas. It is often cheaper than electricity.

A 15 kilo butane cylinder contains about 200 kwh of energy. This is the size used in most portable heaters. Some brands are a bit smaller in order to appeal to the hard of thinking.
A 15 kilo cylinder costs from about £50 which is about 25 pence a unit. A useful saving over grid electricity which is now over 50 pence a unit. If you have no empty cylinder then a cylinder hire charge or deposit is payable. You may have to pay more than £50, it is in short supply.
A butane cylinder wont work if too cold. The lower limit varies a bit according to rate of use and working pressure but is often about 10 degrees. NEVER APPLY DIRECT HEAT TO A GAS CYLINDER. Urinating on it is acceptable in an emergency, or applying warm water at no more than blood heat.

A 19 kilo propane cylinder contains about 260 kwh. They cost about £65. Also in short supply. Propane should not be stored indoors domestically. Propane CAN be used indoors, but should be piped in from cylinders stored outside. At present most suppliers will expect an empty cylinder before selling a full one. Most LPG appliances can use propane or butane, but remember that the regulators are different.

Propane cylinders will give ample pressure at the lowest temperatures likely to be found in the UK.

Do not forget to allow for delivery costs, or petrol if collecting. LPG cylinders are prohibited on most public transport. Some ferries take them, but busses or trains, no way.

[Default0ptions]

Thanks Adam. Some useful information there

[Default0ptions]

It’s probably worth saying that after several years of living on the road, when I moved back into the realms of house dwellers I saved a fortune by continuing to use my 4 ring plus grill and oven caravan cooker running off an admittedly huge propane cylinder instead of getting a new mains gas cooker.

The huge cylinder lasted 9 months or so. Even with an oven roast dinner every week.

Times have changed now, it’s true, but I suspect it’s still cheaper to do the same

Re safety:

You just can’t overestimate the ingenuity of idiots. Does that have to mean that a government can’t give useful advice?

[adam2]

Bottled gas will cost about 25 pence a unit from the larger cylinders. Natural gas has recently increased to about 15 pence a unit.
Bottled gas is therefore more expensive than mains gas under any ordinary circumstances.

Bottled gas pricing is complex. Prices differ from one supplier to another and may or may not include delivery. A cylinder hire charge is usually payable, but not always, sometimes this is refundable but not always in full.

As an example I recently saw 19 kilo propane cylinders at a most attractive sounding price. But with a cylinder charge of £25. Since this was a previously unknown supplier, the chances of having an empty cylinder of the same brand was in effect zero. Once enough customers are "tied" to that supplier, by having paid the £25, the price would likely increase. If they cease trading, the £25 charge is gone forever as no one else will want their cylinders.

I have heard of people painting unwanted cylinders such that they look like Calor ones and may be returned thereto in return for full ones. Presumably that is prohibited.

A small minority of us can get bottled gas cheap or even for free. For example a tool hire shop that hires out LPG equipment will also sell the gas for customers that don't already have supplies. The charge is per cylinder or part thereof. Many part full cylinders are returned at the end of the hire period. These are generally a perk for the staff.
Some fork lift trucks use special propane cylinders with an internal dip tube so as to supply LIQUID propane rather than gas. These are judged to be "empty" when the liquid level drops below the dip tube. Several kilos of gas may remain, and taking home these "empty" tanks can be a perk of working in a place that uses them.

Caravans and motor homes can be hired for holidays etc. The hire fee generally includes two full gas bottles, the part used ones at the end of each hire may be a staff perk.

And there is always outright theft. BR used to use huge numbers of gas cylinders, and many were stolen.

[mr brightside]

One concern i have is that people may just carry on as normal in a sort of herd mentality. Mindsets such as 'i'm not having little Chloe and little Tarquin being cold' might start to get traction among families, who will ignore that fact that children are very resilient to cold.

Is anything stopping us reopening the pits going back to coal gas?

[adam2]

One concern i have is that people may just carry on as normal in a sort of herd mentality. Mindsets such as 'i'm not having little Chloe and little Tarquin being cold' might start to get traction among families, who will ignore that fact that children are very resilient to cold.

Is anything stopping us reopening the pits going back to coal gas?

I cant see any return to coal gas for several reasons.

Firstly coal is out of favour as it is carbon intensive, whether turned into gas or used in other ways.
Secondly coal gas has a much lower calorific value than does natural gas, and the gas main network would have insufficient volumetric capacity to deliver the present heat demand.
Thirdly coal gas burns differently and would require every gas appliance to be modified or replaced.
And finally coal gas is exceedingly toxic and would never be allowed these days.

Poor little Chloe and Tarquin might have to wear warm clothes, a terrible imposition no doubt. Heating in schools should be limited to 18 degrees. Firstly to save money on heating, secondly to set a good example, and finally to indirectly reduce domestic heating demand as children and teachers used to 18 degrees at school might accept this at home.