Vattenfall district heating system proposed for East London

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BritDownUnder
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Vattenfall district heating system proposed for East London

Post by BritDownUnder »

With the high, possibly terminal gas prices and now Black Swan events, this may seem like rearranging the chairs on the Titanic.

Vattenfall has proposed a district heating scheme to cover East London. Energy to come from burning waste.
“We’ve got to think big when it comes to removing emissions from heating, on a scale which works for global cities like London. District heating presents the best option for consumers in urban areas. It’s the cheapest source of low-carbon heat, it’s reliable and it’s resilient against energy shocks.
Personally I think this is worthy of investigation but will require a lot of digging up streets to lay pipes and other infrastructure (no doubt attracting the usual NIMBYs) but will be of some defence against another gas shock. I suppose there could be a 'rubbish' shock where people don't make as much rubbish as usual possibly due to a collapse of the economy but the heat could come from other places such as excess wind generation and be stored or from a large heat pump taking heat from the nearby Thames.
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Re: Vattenfall district heating system proposed for East London

Post by adam2 »

Whilst this idea has SOME merit, I am rather doubtful for several reasons.

The burning of waste is strongly opposed and the idea might therefore not proceed beyond the first NIMBYfest.
I expect the volume of waste to reduce as more is recycled and pressure grows to minimise plastic in particular.
If a power plant is designed for best efficiency then the rejected heat is at too low a temperature to be useful.

They mention waste heat from industry, is there any industry that produces much heat in the area ?

I would not describe reliance on central plant controlled by someone else as being in any way resilient.

Whilst district heating MIGHT be worthwhile for the useful life of existing housing stock with significant heating demand, NEW homes should be designed to need so little heating that district heating is not worthwhile.

And finally most people under most circumstances hate district heating, it has a poor record of reliability, and everyone feels that they are paying too much for the service.
A general expectation is that it should be free, or at least charged for on an "ability to pay" basis rather than on an "amount used" basis.
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Re: Vattenfall district heating system proposed for East London

Post by kenneal - lagger »

They should be insulating the houses first so that all the infrastructure is a lot smaller, 80% smaller. But economists won't like that idea because it is bad for growth and they still live and think in the 20th century.
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Re: Vattenfall district heating system proposed for East London

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And there will be a contractual penalty against authorities who don't provide enough "waste". The level of this cut-off will be high enough to ensure a constant flow of money to Vattenfall.
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Re: Vattenfall district heating system proposed for East London

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emordnilap wrote: 28 Sep 2021, 10:09 And there will be a contractual penalty against authorities who don't provide enough "waste". The level of this cut-off will be high enough to ensure a constant flow of money to Vattenfall.
I can only speak for Australia but there are plans for few electricity generating from waste power stations and one even being built near Perth. The main reason for this was the refusal of China to accept more recycling waste from Australia due to it not being economic to recycle - so it is planned to be burnt instead.

I like the fact that there are Insulation protesters now blocking the road. That is one roadblock I can agree with. However it seems there is great difficulty in insulating houses and flats in the UK. I have no idea why, whether there are economic or practical reasons maybe. It seems to me that if there is no will to recycle waste then it is probably better burnt rather than landfilled, and if it is burnt then it is best to extract all the possible energy from it, even the low grade heat.
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Re: Vattenfall district heating system proposed for East London

Post by adam2 »

Existing homes in the UK often have limited opportunities for improved insulation. Cavity wall insulation and loft insulation are easy, but I suspect that lot have already been done.

New homes COULD be better insulated when built, but this is bitterly resisted.
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Re: Vattenfall district heating system proposed for East London

Post by kenneal - lagger »

BritDownUnder wrote: 28 Sep 2021, 12:33 .........
I like the fact that there are Insulation protesters now blocking the road. That is one roadblock I can agree with. However it seems there is great difficulty in insulating houses and flats in the UK. I have no idea why, whether there are economic or practical reasons maybe. ...........
The block to insulating homes in the UK is mainly economic and partly esthetic. Because harm to the environment isn't taken into account in an economic appraisal the £30k to £40k that it would cost to insulate a house in the UK, on a medium sized contract basis, is seen to be too high. Also the relatively short term of the occupation of the houses means that it is not "economically viable" to spend that sort of money. While most people will spend extra on a house with an expensive, fancy kitchen and bathroom they won't spend extra on a house that has been so well insulated that their heating bills will be 80% lower than any other house and few lenders will lend a little extra on that basis either. It has been said that under the old Green Deal, where a covenant was put on houses which had benefited from the scheme to insulate the house, lenders were reluctant to lend. That reluctance must be stamped upon by the government.

The next stage in insulating most houses and the one which will save the most energy is to insulate the walls on the outside. Many people are reluctant to do this as they like their brick houses rather than what is seen to be a cheap, rendered finish. A government funded scheme could pay for a rendered finish with the option of the house owner paying extra for a brick slip finish, basically a brick sized, textured and coloured tile fixed over the insulation with a mortar bed between slips.

This is all paid for by a surcharge on the electricity bill which would be less than any savings made on fuel purchases so the house owner won't notice any extra costs. On the contrary they should still see a saving. This payment would be covenanted on the deeds for a specific length of time, say 50 or 60 years. As the government will have raised the money to pay for this loan through the same Ways and Means method used to print the money to pay for the covid crisis, as long as the money returned is written off and not used to fund any current account spending, the money raised will not be inflationary.

The economic brake could be freed by such a government scheme similar to the old Green Deal but with an interest free loan and an "ultimate" insulation level: a level at which the returns cease to pay for the energy savings and that coincides with the thickness of the insulation for a given energy saving becoming unmanageable. That coincides with a U-value of about 0.08 W/m deg K for roofs at 450mm fibre, 0.1 for walls, about 300mm of fibre, about 0.1 for floors, about 200 for PIR foam and triple gazing to openings. The air tighness level should also be improved to below 0.6 air changes per hour. this installation should include the installation of Mechanical Ventilation with Heat Recovery and the replacement of the fossil fuel boiler with a heat pump.
It seems to me that if there is no will to recycle waste then it is probably better burnt rather than landfilled, and if it is burnt then it is best to extract all the possible energy from it, even the low grade heat.
The problem comes where people don't see waste as a problem but rather an opportunity to make warmth and so don't reduce their waste. And something like the clause penalising local authorities for not supplying enough waste will emphasise this. Such clauses should be made illegal with very heavy fines. While they are making a law it should include a fine on any UK company which takes a nation to court for bringing in a law which reduces their fossil energy production and/or consumption and consequently the profits or turnover of that company. The fine should be double any award from the tribunal.
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Re: Vattenfall district heating system proposed for East London

Post by adam2 »

This is the sort of thing that puts people of district heating.

https://www.southwarknews.co.uk/news/di ... -networks/
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Re: Vattenfall district heating system proposed for East London

Post by kenneal - lagger »

Southwark residents seem to be sharing one of the joys of nationalisation, bad management with no recourse to fixing the problems.
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Re: Vattenfall district heating system proposed for East London

Post by adam2 »

Here is another reason to avoid district heating, the price payable is not subject to the government energy price cap, and is effectively unlimited.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60402009
"Installers and owners of emergency diesels must assume that they will have to run for a week or more"
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