PowerSwitch

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-h ... s-17383837

Quite an interesting article about discussion between Scottish Government and NFU over the problem of an ageing farming population, and attracting younger people.

Issues include; land prices, Availability of tenancies and succession.

Tarrel wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-h ... s-17383837

Quite an interesting article about discussion between Scottish Government and NFU over the problem of an ageing farming population, and attracting younger people.

Issues include; land prices, Availability of tenancies and succession.

The reason young people can't get into farming is the same reason young people can't get a house of their own.

They can't afford it.

Until the underlying issue of the intergenerational transfer of wealth from the young to the old is addressed, none of the above will change.

stevecook172001 wrote:The reason young people can't get into farming is the same reason young people can't get a house of their own.

They can't afford it.

Until the underlying issue of the intergenerational transfer of wealth from the young to the old is addressed, none of the above will change.

It's not just that. Many farms are being sold as the parents retire because the younger generation don't see the point of enjoying a nice lifestyle for below the minimum wage salaries. Indeed many farms are making a loss because of the ridiculous prices offered by monopoly position supermarkets for the food produced. Until people start paying the true cost of food you won't get many young people going into farming.

kenneal - lagger wrote:

stevecook172001 wrote:The reason young people can't get into farming is the same reason young people can't get a house of their own.

They can't afford it.

Until the underlying issue of the intergenerational transfer of wealth from the young to the old is addressed, none of the above will change.

It's not just that. Many farms are being sold as the parents retire because the younger generation don't see the point of enjoying a nice lifestyle for below the minimum wage salaries. Indeed many farms are making a loss because of the ridiculous prices offered by monopoly position supermarkets for the food produced. Until people start paying the true cost of food you won't get many young people going into farming.

The reason the below-the-minimum-wage salaries exist for small farms is twofold.

1). the large overhang of debt that needs servicing before any income can be taken.

2), the large overhang of debt on many small farms has led to a consolidation into massive agri-chem farming corporations whose economies of scale have pushed profit margins unsustainably tight for small farms even if they have little debt.

It still all comes down to the same thing I mentioned earlier; a wall of credit chasing land and real estate over the last thirty years, in turn pushing up prices to insane levels and (in relation to farming) making it impossible to make money unless you inherit a very big farm or unless you are a corporation with bottomless pockets.

Farmers are certainly being squeezed as far as input costs are concerned. My friend and neighbour runs a large (by local standards) farm producing mostly lamb and barley. He owns it and runs it with just a couple of assistants. He was telling me the other day how costs (mostly fossil-fuel-related) have shot up and hit him hard in the last year:
- Fertiliser
- Weed control
- inoculations, etc
- Plastic sacks for silage
- Fuel for drying grain (Scotland had a very wet sumer last year)
- Fuel for equipment (it now costs him £300 to fill up the tractor, based on red diesel at £0.79 per litre)

Fortunately for him, lamb prices are holding up well. He also provides shooting activities for "prosperous overseas guests" and runs what looks (to my uneducated eye) like a very well organised and efficient operation. He's definitely finding it hard though.

He has two girls of Uni / graduate age, neither of whom seem interested in going into the business. Not sure what he'll do in the long term.

Thinking aloud here, so bear with me..

If he had more profit margin to play with, I wonder whether he could bring in an apprentice or two. When I started in engineering, we had Craft Apprentices and Technical Apprentices. The latter were the ones who would go on to the drawing office or supervision. I wonder whether such a two-tier approach is needed on the farms, where the advanced apprentices would be groomed to take over the operational management of the farm.

I wonder if it would be possible to set up some kind of trust or investment organisation (perhaps involving the NFU). A farmer without anyone to hand the farm on to could sell it to the Trust once he retired, which would guarantee to continue to run it, either leasing it to the (now experienced) apprentice or employing him, and providing a guaranteed pension or annuity to the farmer. In this way, even when the farmer dies, the farm continues to operate and is in the experienced hands of someone who knows it and has been well-trained, but with the support of a nurturing organisation behind him/her.

Perhaps the Trust could also act as a marketing organisation to provide scale and protect the farmers' margins in the face of aggressive buying policies of the retailers. The North Highland Initiative, founded by Prince Charles, does something similar to this on behalf of food producers in Caithness and Sutherland, under the "Mey Selections" brand (which you can find in places like Waitrose).

Food for thought? (Pun intended)

stevecook172001 wrote:1). the large overhang of debt that needs servicing before any income can be taken.

2), the large overhang of debt on many small farms has led to a consolidation into massive agri-chem farming corporations whose economies of scale have pushed profit margins unsustainably tight for small farms even if they have little debt.

It still all comes down to the same thing I mentioned earlier; a wall of credit chasing land and real estate over the last thirty years, in turn pushing up prices to insane levels and (in relation to farming) making it impossible to make money unless you inherit a very big farm or unless you are a corporation with bottomless pockets.

The large overhang of debt as you call it is because we, the consumer, and I include you, stevecook, in that category, shop where the food in cheapest. All the supermarkets sell on the basis of being the cheapest and that has driven the price to the supplier down to ridiculously uneconomic levels such that they now make a loss on many products sold to the monopoly supermarket buyers.

Farmers' sons and daughters don't want to take on the farm when their parents retire so they are sold to people with money looking for a safe place for it, *ankers. You can't get a loan to buy agricultural land because the returns are too small to cover the repayments.

We used to have buyers coops such as the Milk and Potato Marketing boards to protect the price payed to the farmer but these were broken up by the EU as they were seem as cartels. the EU should break up the supermarket chains on the same basis.

kenneal - lagger wrote: Many farms are being sold as the parents retire because the younger generation don't see the point of enjoying a nice lifestyle for below the minimum wage salaries.

WHAT?!?!?! "nice lifestyle" has now become farming? The children fled the farms exactly because this WASN'T true, they certainly aren't going back to try and figure out all over again why they left, are they?

Don't get me wrong, I love farms, grew up on one, and like my peers fled for my life when given the chance. It is one thing to say that power down will force those who don't have other marketable skills back to the farms, but for the generations which have fled the farms, "force" is the key word.

I am a 20-year old European thinking about getting into farming after university.

If you have any advice / programs you know of, let me know!

Marry into a family with land!

Farmers' sons and daughters don't want to take on the farm when their parents retire so they are sold to people with money looking for a safe place for it, *ankers. You can't get a loan to buy agricultural land because the returns are too small to cover the repayments.

That is my plan for the future!!!!

http://www.makinglocalfoodwork.co.uk/ab ... /index.cfm
Perhaps community buy outs on a farm.

Crofting is a good model if the legislation is stripped away.

Using good practise.
http://www.regenerativeagriculture.co.u ... e-calendar

AnOriginalIdea wrote:

kenneal - lagger wrote: Many farms are being sold as the parents retire because the younger generation don't see the point of enjoying a nice lifestyle for below the minimum wage salaries.

WHAT?!?!?! "nice lifestyle" has now become farming? The children fled the farms exactly because this WASN'T true, they certainly aren't going back to try and figure out all over again why they left, are they?

Don't get me wrong, I love farms, grew up on one, and like my peers fled for my life when given the chance. It is one thing to say that power down will force those who don't have other marketable skills back to the farms, but for the generations which have fled the farms, "force" is the key word.

Sorry, AOI! There are many like you who are glad to leave but there are also just as many who love the "lifestyle" of farming and that's the only reason that they carry on doing what they do. there would probably be even more is they could afford the lifestyle.

kenneal - lagger wrote:

stevecook172001 wrote:1). the large overhang of debt that needs servicing before any income can be taken.

2), the large overhang of debt on many small farms has led to a consolidation into massive agri-chem farming corporations whose economies of scale have pushed profit margins unsustainably tight for small farms even if they have little debt.

It still all comes down to the same thing I mentioned earlier; a wall of credit chasing land and real estate over the last thirty years, in turn pushing up prices to insane levels and (in relation to farming) making it impossible to make money unless you inherit a very big farm or unless you are a corporation with bottomless pockets.

The large overhang of debt as you call it is because we, the consumer, and I include you, stevecook, in that category, shop where the food in cheapest. All the supermarkets sell on the basis of being the cheapest and that has driven the price to the supplier down to ridiculously uneconomic levels such that they now make a loss on many products sold to the monopoly supermarket buyers.

Farmers' sons and daughters don't want to take on the farm when their parents retire so they are sold to people with money looking for a safe place for it, *ankers. You can't get a loan to buy agricultural land because the returns are too small to cover the repayments.

We used to have buyers coops such as the Milk and Potato Marketing boards to protect the price payed to the farmer but these were broken up by the EU as they were seem as cartels. the EU should break up the supermarket chains on the same basis.

The argument that it is the fault of consumers who only want to buy the cheapest food is a total red herring. Consumers have always wanted to buy the cheapest food. Indeed, there have been times in our relatively recent history (the last century or so) where the pressure for consumers to seek out the cheapest food has been much higher than today. Yet, during those times, profits were still higher than they are today for small to medium sized farms.

Therefore, since this consumer predisposition is a constant and not a variable, it cannot, by definition, represent any part of the primary explanation for the falling profits of small farms.

The argument isn't a red herring because the whole buyer/seller relationship has changed in recent years. As production has gone from relative over supply to relatively balance supply/demand the marketing has gone from a very broad market to virtual monopoly purchasing by the supermarkets.

Consumers have supported the low prices of supermarkets by using the car to travel to the superstores. This has resulted in the demise of local stores. With the monopoly position enjoyed by supermarkets and the advent of expensive fuel the consumer will now suffer as supermarkets will not have much competition and food prices will start to rise as supermarkets find that they have a captive local audience.

I think this is missing the point...

The reason that land is so expensive is because horses, houses and CAP-funded prairie monoculture are more economically valuable than traditional small-scaled farming. The rules of the present system have been drawn-up in the interests of those who are part of that system -- large landowners, many of whom in Britain are still the gentry. If you're currently outside of that system, you're not going to buy your way in for the cost of an average house/garden. Like any other business activity, you have to pay the economic value that's commensurate with the returns these activities create.

We've been trying to find somewhere "in the sticks" for nearly ten years. We've put bids in on a lot of occasions, usually around or just above the asking price. on every occasion we've been outbid. Now it's not that which sticks in my gizzard; it's what happens afterwards.

We deliberate look for "unimproved" sites because that's all we can afford (in fact its what we want). A year or two later we'll pass these places and they've been blitzed -- I mean completely razed. Traditional buildings which could have simply been refurbished are flattened to make way for gin palaces and stables. I think the worst was in North Wales, where the excellent old long house (which might have been a chapel on an ancient site) was completely gutted and remodelled, and because of the springs which bubble up all around it they'd laid about 10,000m2 of concrete slab so that the 4x4s didn't sink into the ground.

Until you address the various subsidies and economic rights which make land such a valuable commodity -- and of course than means addressing the basic inequalities of society because these rules have been made by the landed elite -- then we won't change agriculture. Certainly not anything like the more open/lower cost family-run farms that you find in large parts of Europe.