UK-Netherlands power cable begins transmission

Aurora · Post by **Aurora** » 11 Apr 2011, 15:17

The Guardian - 11/04/11

BritNed cable establishes electricity connection to mainland Europe and marks first step towards a European supergrid.

Article continues ...

DominicJ · Post by **DominicJ** » 11 Apr 2011, 15:38

Erm, isnt there a UK France interconnector built into the Chunnel?

Post by **adam2** » 11 Apr 2011, 15:45

The channel tunnel uses considerable electricity, and this may be supplied from either end according to price and availability.
AFAIK there is no facility for significant import/export of electricity via the channel tunnel.
There is a cable between the UK and France for import/export of electricity but this is laid in a trench across the sea bed, not via the tunnel.
This link has been in use for many years.
The interconnector to Holland is much newer and has only been in use for a few days.
Furthur interconnections have been proposed.

nnnnnn · Post by **nnnnnn** » 12 Apr 2011, 10:31

Why are they using DC? I always thought that AC was better for transmission .

Pepperman · Post by **Pepperman** » 12 Apr 2011, 10:37

You don't get such big losses with HVDC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-volta ... ansmission

Bandidoz · Post by **Bandidoz** » 12 Apr 2011, 11:37

It would not be possible to use AC since the two grids would need to be synchronised for it to work.

Post by **adam2** » 12 Apr 2011, 12:18

DC is used for two reasons, firstly the two grid systems do not have to be synchcronised. With a DC link power may be transfered in either direction despite minor differences in frequency.
Secondly, over long distances DC is often more efficient since only resistance losses occur, had AC been used then inductive and capacitive losses need to be taken into account. DC also allows higher voltages for the same thickness of insulation.

The drawback of DC is that relatively costly and complicated plant is required at each end to convert to/from AC.
In general AC is prefered for relatively local transmission, up to perhaps a few hundred miles, and for distribution. The voltage of an AC supply is easily altered by a transformer, these are cheap and simple appliances.
To change the voltage of a DC supply, whilst posible is far more complex and costly.

The link to France is fairly short and AC would have been fine, but for the problem of having to synchronise two systems.

The sophisticated power electronics used to convert to/from HVDC are becoming somwhat more affordable and it is likely that DC will be used more in situations when AC would have been used in the past.

DominicJ · Post by **DominicJ** » 12 Apr 2011, 12:41

There is a cable between the UK and France for import/export of electricity but this is laid in a trench across the sea bed, not via the tunnel.
This link has been in use for many years.

Could've sworn they added one as part of the tunnel, maybe it is a pig and uses loads.

The interconnector to Holland is much newer and has only been in use for a few days.

But, but a UK/Europe interconnector isnt exactly new, either as an idea or activity.

The article seemed to imply this had never been done before, when in reality its fairly common.

AndySir · Post by **AndySir** » 12 Apr 2011, 13:04

DominicJ wrote:
The article seemed to imply this had never been done before, when in reality its fairly common.

The £500m BritNed cable, which has just entered operation, is the first direct current electricity link from the UK to another country in 25 years.

Two reading comprehension failures in one sentence - article does not imply what you say it does and also tells you this is not fairly common.

DominicJ · Post by **DominicJ** » 12 Apr 2011, 16:26

BritNed cable establishes electricity connection to mainland Europe and marks first step towards a European supergrid.

This is not the first electricity connection between the UK and the mainland.
That is simply untrue
Nor is it the first step towards a European supergrid, almopst all of Europe is already on the bloody supergrid!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ElectricityUCTE.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HVDC_Europe.svg

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 12 Apr 2011, 21:06

Yeah but it's the first step that involves US, and doesn't depend on the (perfideous) French, so it's newsworthy

AndySir · Post by **AndySir** » 13 Apr 2011, 07:26

It's also much closer to helpful Scandinavian hydro, which would be a huge boon to our renewable energy growth (hydro can be turned on and off v. quickly). A lecturer at my university was recently consulting on a similar cable across the straights of Gibraltar - moving towards a European and North African grid. That'd get Saharan solar on the move as well.

I think it's fair to say that the Denmark-Norway connection is the foundation of Germany's impressive green energy growth. This is important news despite ill-informed attempts to dismiss it.

(P.S. I note, DomJ, that with your now familiar devotion to misrepresentation that you linked carefully to the HVDC image but not the description which tells you that only the red lines are existing interconnections, rather than proposed or under construction. The green line from UK to Europe is the cable in the article. The red one to France our existing 2000MW cable which I understand we use to capacity to import energy from France.)

DominicJ · Post by **DominicJ** » 13 Apr 2011, 09:04

Andy Sir
If you actualy click the link, you will see a map, with several lines on it, if you click the down arrow on the right hand side a few times, or spin your scroll wheel towards you, you will see an information box
The first piece of information is

Description HVDC Europe.svg
en:HVDC connections in Europe excepting low power lines to platforms and out of service lines. Legende: Green= approved project, Red = existing, Blue= Options under consideration

I repeat, there is already a connection between the UK and mainland Europe.
This is not the first connection.

What exactly am I misrepresenting?

I say again, there already is a European Supergrid, covering or partialy servicing some 25 countries.
Saying that an interconnecter between the UK and the Netherlands is the first step in the creation of such a grid is wrong. It is incorrect. It is factualy without basis.

Unless of course you can provide some new facts?
Am I misunderstanding the big teal splodge on the map?

Post by **adam2** » 13 Apr 2011, 09:41

Such interconnecting cables can be very useful, for the reasons given in the article linked to.
I hope however that we dont become too reliant on them, owing to the small but real risks of failure.
I would also hope that we install sufficient wind power capacity to be able to export significant wind power. At present the flow is very largely towards us with limited exports.
Being reliant on other countries for electricity is even worse than being reliant on oil imports since oil can at least be stored.
At present we are vulnerable to electricity shortages in mainland Europe resulting in exporting nations ceaseing to export.
If however the trade in electricity was more balanced, then other countries would have no reason to cut us off, even in times of shortage, since they would be glad of supplies FROM us at other times of day etc.

AndySir · Post by **AndySir** » 13 Apr 2011, 11:17

DominicJ wrote:
I say again, there already is a European Supergrid, covering or partialy servicing some 25 countries.
...
Am I misunderstanding the big teal splodge on the map?

Yes. Teal splodge != European Supergrid. This is a major project to connect Scandinavia, Britain, North Africa and Iceland to the main European grid not merely a grid which crosses national boundaries. Try looking up Dr Gregor Czisch for 'new' facts - or indeed to understand what it is that you are dismissing.