Oh dear, George...

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mobbsey
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Oh dear, George...

Post by mobbsey »

Oh dear, oohhhh deary me!

Forget the accident issue, he really doesn't "get" the energy, resource and economics of nuclear given the content of yesterday's article. Do you think we've entered the era of the "carbon fanatic"? -- ignoring the complex ecological interactions of any action simply because it satisfies just one criteria?

What's absurd about this article is that, technologically, nuclear doesn't even begin to address the carbon emissions issue because it isn't a technology applicable to substitute for all fossil fuel use -- only for baseload power production. Consequently George's argument does even begin to show a comprehension of what the question is all about.

The Fukushima "incident" isn't over yet -- in fact, given the problems of dismantling a super-critical fuel mass from a disrupted reactor core, the problems have only really just begun.

:roll:

P.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... -fukushima

Why Fukushima made me stop worrying and love nuclear power

Japan's disaster would weigh more heavily if there were less harmful alternatives. Atomic power is part of the mix

George Monbiot, The Guardian, Monday 21 March 2011


You will not be surprised to hear that the events in Japan have changed my view of nuclear power. You will be surprised to hear how they have changed it. As a result of the disaster at Fukushima, I am no longer nuclear-neutral. I now support the technology.

A crappy old plant with inadequate safety features was hit by a monster earthquake and a vast tsunami. The electricity supply failed, knocking out the cooling system. The reactors began to explode and melt down. The disaster exposed a familiar legacy of poor design and corner-cutting. Yet, as far as we know, no one has yet received a lethal dose of radiation.

Some greens have wildly exaggerated the dangers of radioactive pollution. For a clearer view, look at the graphic published by xkcd.com. It shows that the average total dose from the Three Mile Island disaster for someone living within 10 miles of the plant was one 625th of the maximum yearly amount permitted for US radiation workers. This, in turn, is half of the lowest one-year dose clearly linked to an increased cancer risk, which, in its turn, is one 80th of an invariably fatal exposure. I'm not proposing complacency here. I am proposing perspective.

If other forms of energy production caused no damage, these impacts would weigh more heavily. But energy is like medicine: if there are no side-effects, the chances are that it doesn't work.

Like most greens, I favour a major expansion of renewables. I can also sympathise with the complaints of their opponents. It's not just the onshore windfarms that bother people, but also the new grid connections (pylons and power lines). As the proportion of renewable electricity on the grid rises, more pumped storage will be needed to keep the lights on. That means reservoirs on mountains: they aren't popular, either.

The impacts and costs of renewables rise with the proportion of power they supply, as the need for storage and redundancy increases. It may well be the case (I have yet to see a comparative study) that up to a certain grid penetration – 50% or 70%, perhaps? – renewables have smaller carbon impacts than nuclear, while beyond that point, nuclear has smaller impacts than renewables.

Like others, I have called for renewable power to be used both to replace the electricity produced by fossil fuel and to expand the total supply, displacing the oil used for transport and the gas used for heating fuel. Are we also to demand that it replaces current nuclear capacity? The more work we expect renewables to do, the greater the impact on the landscape will be, and the tougher the task of public persuasion.

But expanding the grid to connect people and industry to rich, distant sources of ambient energy is also rejected by most of the greens who complained about the blog post I wrote last week in which I argued that nuclear remains safer than coal. What they want, they tell me, is something quite different: we should power down and produce our energy locally. Some have even called for the abandonment of the grid. Their bucolic vision sounds lovely, until you read the small print.

At high latitudes like ours, most small-scale ambient power production is a dead loss. Generating solar power in the UK involves a spectacular waste of scarce resources. It's hopelessly inefficient and poorly matched to the pattern of demand. Wind power in populated areas is largely worthless. This is partly because we have built our settlements in sheltered places; partly because turbulence caused by the buildings interferes with the airflow and chews up the mechanism. Micro-hydropower might work for a farmhouse in Wales, but it's not much use in Birmingham.

And how do we drive our textile mills, brick kilns, blast furnaces and electric railways – not to mention advanced industrial processes? Rooftop solar panels? The moment you consider the demands of the whole economy is the moment at which you fall out of love with local energy production. A national (or, better still, international) grid is the essential prerequisite for a largely renewable energy supply.

Some greens go even further: why waste renewable resources by turning them into electricity? Why not use them to provide energy directly? To answer this question, look at what happened in Britain before the industrial revolution.

The damming and weiring of British rivers for watermills was small-scale, renewable, picturesque and devastating. By blocking the rivers and silting up the spawning beds, they helped bring to an end the gigantic runs of migratory fish that were once among our great natural spectacles and which fed much of Britain – wiping out sturgeon, lampreys and shad, as well as most sea trout and salmon.

Traction was intimately linked with starvation. The more land that was set aside for feeding draft animals for industry and transport, the less was available for feeding humans. It was the 17th-century equivalent of today's biofuels crisis. The same applied to heating fuel. As EA Wrigley points out in his book Energy and the English Industrial Revolution, the 11m tonnes of coal mined in England in 1800 produced as much energy as 11m acres of woodland (one third of the land surface) would have generated.

Before coal became widely available, wood was used not just for heating homes but also for industrial processes: if half the land surface of Britain had been covered with woodland, Wrigley shows, we could have made 1.25m tonnes of bar iron a year (a fraction of current consumption) and nothing else. Even with a much lower population than today's, manufactured goods in the land-based economy were the preserve of the elite. Deep green energy production – decentralised, based on the products of the land – is far more damaging to humanity than nuclear meltdown.

But the energy source to which most economies will revert if they shut down their nuclear plants is not wood, water, wind or sun, but fossil fuel. On every measure (climate change, mining impact, local pollution, industrial injury and death, even radioactive discharges) coal is 100 times worse than nuclear power. Thanks to the expansion of shale gas production, the impacts of natural gas are catching up fast.

Yes, I still loathe the liars who run the nuclear industry. Yes, I would prefer to see the entire sector shut down, if there were harmless alternatives. But there are no ideal solutions. Every energy technology carries a cost; so does the absence of energy technologies. Atomic energy has just been subjected to one of the harshest of possible tests, and the impact on people and the planet has been small. The crisis at Fukushima has converted me to the cause of nuclear power.
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Post by DominicJ »

What's absurd about this article is that, technologically, nuclear doesn't even begin to address the carbon emissions issue because it isn't a technology applicable to substitute for all fossil fuel use -- only for baseload power production. Consequently George's argument does even begin to show a comprehension of what the question is all about.
Except baseload isnt fixed.
We can easily convert to electric heating useing overnight power and water tanks. That ramps the base load up massivly.
We can increase pumped storage.
Over time, we can spread out domestic smart metering.

Nuclear cant reasonably provide all of our electricity, but it can provide a lot more than it does.
Just look at Japan.

The Fukushima "incident" isn't over yet -- in fact, given the problems of dismantling a super-critical fuel mass from a disrupted reactor core, the problems have only really just begun.
Some greens have wildly exaggerated the dangers of radioactive pollution
You were WRONG!

The plant didnt explode, the radiation leaks were pitiful, the corner cut reactors survived when everything for miles around collapsed, Reactor buildings were repurposed as emergency shelters in many cases, being the only buildings still standing, never mind with power and water.
I'm a realist, not a hippie
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mobbsey
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Post by mobbsey »

DominicJ wrote:
The Fukushima "incident" isn't over yet -- in fact, given the problems of dismantling a super-critical fuel mass from a disrupted reactor core, the problems have only really just begun.
Some greens have wildly exaggerated the dangers of radioactive pollution
You were WRONG!
As I said, it's not over yet...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12814871

George's story was presumably filed before this incident was announced to the media. It could be that there's sporadic fission going on -- after all that happens in nature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_nu ... on_reactor). However I'd have thought it more likely, given that they're not able to maintain constant cooling, that hot spots created by the decay of fission products are driving off contaminated steam and fission gases. If they can't maintain an even level of cooling across the core then they don't have control of the situation.

I had an interesting time in the late 80s/early 90s looking at Britain's nuclear legacy, and it has some telling lessons for how not to develop a technology. If you look at the dismantling of the Windscale reactors, or the Dounreay materials test reactor, faults/accidents during the reactor's operational life hampered the dismantling process. Like Fukushima, being old reactor designs they were constructed, unlike designs of the last couple of decades, without a thought being given the dismantling them at the end of their operational life. If, as the sketchy reports indicate, one or more of the Fukushima reactors has pressure damage to the primary cooling circuit that implies disruption in the core -- and in turn that complicates decommissioning. More importantly, if heating caused the fuel pins to rupture, the contamination of the core would mean any dismantling work would have to be undertaken remotely, using robots or remote handling apparatus -- and that in turn complicates the process, increases highly active waste volumes and ramps up the decommissioning costs.
DominicJ wrote:The plant didn't explode
Image
I'm sorry, run that statement past me again? :wink:
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Post by raspberry-blower »

DominicJ wrote:
the radiation leaks were pitiful,
Ahem

Radiation at 400 times background levels recorded over 40 Km away from the rubble that is Fukushima Daiichi
Japan's science ministry says radiation exceeding 400 times the normal level was detected in soil about 40 kilometers from the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The ministry surveyed radioactive substances in soil about 5 centimeters below the surface at roadsides on Monday.
from NHK
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Post by biffvernon »

Mostly Monbiot writes good sense but sometimes I feel that his need to meet a publishing schedule overrides the priority of picking the right words and arranging them in the right order.
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Post by clv101 »

raspberry-blower wrote:Radiation at 400 times background levels recorded
This kind of statement really isn't very useful without further quantification.
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Post by raspberry-blower »

clv101 wrote:
raspberry-blower wrote:Radiation at 400 times background levels recorded
This kind of statement really isn't very useful without further quantification.
From the linked report:
NHK wrote:The ministry found 43,000 becquerels of radioactive iodine-131 per kilogram of soil, and 4,700 becquerels of radioactive cesium-137 per kilogram about 40 kilometers west-northwest of the plant.

Gunma University Professor Keigo Endo says radiation released by the iodine is 430 times the level normally detected in soil in Japan and that released by the cesium is 47 times the norm.

Endo says the data means that a person staying at the location for one year would be exposed to 4 times the amount of radiation allowed by national standards. The professor says there is no immediate health risk, but that radioactive cesium can accumulate in soil and that radiation levels must continue to be monitored.

The science ministry says there is no environmental standard for radioactive substances in soil, and that it sees no problem at this time
Whilst the Japanese are saying this poses no short term problems, longer term this is unclear. These standards will no doubt be revised in time.

The big problem will be cesium - particularly 137 isotope - which according to the report, was 47 times the normal background limit. Iodine 131, which is a short-lived isotope - it has a half life of 8 days - is the more prevalent source of radioactivity at 430 times its background limit.

So there is a spike in radiation levels - which will decline in the near future but remain at elevated levels for a while yet.

Point is, radiation has spread far beyond the original exclusion zone, and were not, as Dom described it, pitiful
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools - Douglas Adams.
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Post by Bandidoz »

Putting aside the ideal "renewables and reduce demand", what's the lesser evil, coal or nuclear?
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Post by mobbsey »

Bandidoz wrote:Putting aside the ideal "renewables and reduce demand", what's the lesser evil, coal or nuclear?
Revise that towards a more fundamental question which George has problems tackling; which is the lesser evil:

# Doing with less and contracting the economy; or

# Trying thrash the guts out of what energy resources are left to keep the myth alive until the current generation of stooges leave (or are ejected from :wink: ) elected office.

That's what really what lies at the root of this debate -- the fuel source is incidental.
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Post by Bandidoz »

Yes Paul we both know that, which is why I was trying to be very specific with the question. I think George is putting across the view that "out of a choice between nuclear and coal, nuclear is the better option"...
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Post by mobbsey »

Bandidoz wrote:Yes Paul we both know that
The point is, he knows that too.

He's been on my circulation list for all the energy stuff I've been doing since 2001; he's even written articles around the peak oil/energy issue over the last few years. However, faced with cow-towing to the growing Mark Lynas/Stewart Brand "ecological pragmatism" axis (in case you haven't been monitoring that bandwagon), or standing apart from the "oh so horribly upper middle class" mass of Britain's ecological elite by telling the facts as they are, he obviously blinked -- and decided to swallow the blue pill.
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Post by PS_RalphW »

Out of the two, I would chose coal.

Because I anticipate a fast crash in the global economy (or at least a lot fatser than the 60 year planned life and decommisioning timescale of new nuclear build) we will not get the full benefit of that nuclear energy nor suffer the ful harm of burning all that coal. However, once we comission a nuclear plant, it becomes a major liability to decommision from day one. A liability we will not have the ENERGY to pay, except by leaving the unprocessed fuel rods to rot quietly in the cooling ponds and relaease their radioactive elements slowly into the groundwater in the coming centuries.

If we fail to decommision a coal mine, we end up with a few slag heaps.
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Post by biffvernon »

Indeed.
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Post by energy-village »

George has a lot of faith that he knows the truth at Fukushima. But do we know yet? If the reality was really bad would we be told? What incentives do the operators, Japan or the nuclear industry have to tell the truth? An acknowledged major disaster might stop worldwide investment in the technology overnight – for years, decades even. There must be billions or even trillions at stake, never mind all the heavy politics.

Fingers crossed we’re going to be told the truth about what really happened. Touch wood nothing like this ever happens again. We only have one Earth.
:(
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Post by mobbsey »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... r-stations

Japan nuclear crisis puts UK public off new power stations

Support for new nuclear in UK falls by 12% following near-meltdown at Fukushima in Japan, Friends of the Earth finds

Bibi van der Zee, Grauniad, Tuesday 22 March 2011

Support for nuclear power in the UK has dropped by 12% following the near-meltdown at Fukushima nuclear power plant, according to a national opinion poll conducted since the earthquake near Japan that triggered a devastating tsunami.

The nuclear emergency, which the Japanese authorities are still battling to contain, looks set to make it more difficult for the UK government to push through its planned programme of new nuclear power stations. Of those polled, 37 percent said they were now more likely to oppose the building of new nuclear power stations in the UK and 44 percent said they were worried about the safety of nuclear power plants here. <snip>
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ma ... lear-plant

Japan fears food contamination as battle to cool nuclear plant continues

Abnormal radiation levels reported in tap water, vegetables and milk with concerns that fish may also be affected

Justin McCurry in Osaka, Grauniad, Tuesday 22 March 2011

Days after Japanese authorities reported abnormal levels of radiation in milk, some vegetables and tap water, the plant's operator, Tokyo Electric Power (Tepco) said high levels of radioactivity had been found in seawater near the facility, raising fears that seafood has also been contaminated.

The power company said seawater samples contained levels of radioactive iodine 126.7 times the allowed limit, and caesium 24.8 times over. The firm said the quantities posed no immediate threat to health.<snip>
As an aside, did you know that there were a group of people in Japan who got atom bombed twice? The day after Hiroshima they were evacuated by train to Nagasaki. Quite a few of them lived and I think the last died a few years ago (which is when I heard about the story).

Unfortunately, the health risk for radiation is based largely upon the impact upon bomb victims, most of who would have been irradiated with gamma rays. The types of radiation from a meltdown are rather different (e.g., bombs don't produce large quantities if radioactive iodine). A decade ago I wrote a paper on the RSA authorisation for the UK's Magnox stations, and along with it I submitted a lot of background papers on health physics and problems with radiation dose models. I've put the whole thing in my work archive --
http://www.fraw.org.uk/mei/archive/index.shtml#rsa

For beginners, the New Scientist article in that wad of papers is still pretty much up to date --
http://www.fraw.org.uk/mei/archive/magnox_a1_13.pdf
Last edited by mobbsey on 23 Mar 2011, 08:06, edited 2 times in total.
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