Greece Watch...

johnhemming · Post by **johnhemming** » 27 Jun 2015, 20:21

Austerity tends not to be electorally popular. That does not mean it can be avoided. In the end personally I did what was best for the country.

I am quite happy spending more time on music and will continue with my campaigning on justice issues - as I have been doing since the election.

Although without me in parliament there will probably not be an all party parliamentary group on peak oil and gas, hydrocarbon depletion remains an issue that should be on policymakers horizon.

To be honest until about 2012-13 (from 2010) I expected to lose in 2015. I was persuaded I had a chance by a number of factors. This was my most positive election for comments on the doorstep and people stopping their cars to thank me, but I/we lost.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 27 Jun 2015, 20:30

johnhemming wrote: I was elected to get a fairer system for student finance and that result was achieved.

Blimey! That's one bit of LibDem election promise swiftly broken that I'd have thought you wouldn't have wanted to remind us of. Some folk voted LibDem just because they promised an end to fees. Not that it has much to do with Greece!

johnhemming · Post by **johnhemming** » 27 Jun 2015, 20:42

It was about getting a fairer alternative to a system which was not progressive. If you look at what the graduates pay the government it is a fairer alternative than the previous one. For over 75% of graduates there is a contribution from government beyond subsidised interest rates. For many of these the government pays everything.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 27 Jun 2015, 22:56

johnhemming wrote:It was about getting a fairer alternative to a system which was not progressive. If you look at what the graduates pay the government it is a fairer alternative than the previous one. For over 75% of graduates there is a contribution from government beyond subsidised interest rates. For many of these the government pays everything.

You are no kind of advert for the political class mister. But, then again, you are probably an entirely typical representative of it.

Your party stood for election on a clear and unambiguous promise to scrap tuition fees if they ever got into a position of power. At the very least, in coalition with the Tories (which itself was deeply politically disingenuous given the underlying political demographic of many of Lib Dem voters), the least dishonourable position to have taken would have been to abstain on the issue. Instead, the Liberal Democrats signed up to Coalition policy to allow institutions to charge up to £9,000 a year. And, of course, the vast majority charged precisely £9,000. Even your f***ing erstwhile leader has admitted on the record he directly broke your party's promises on this issue. And yet, here you are, with your typical politician's weasel words, claiming black is white.

My sons are currently about to enter their third year of university. We are a working class family with no spare money and so they have had to take on the full burden of debt which, by the end of it, will be near as dammit 50k each. All of which calls to mind some history I learned about 45 years ago about how Saxon serfs would only get to work for their Norman overlords on the basis of Indentured servitude. In this, they were forced to work for a number of years at their own expense . Basically, those Norman overlords were passing on the operating costs of training their serfs to the serfs themselves.

Fast forward several centuries and we get big business unprepared to pay for the cost of training their workforces and so have passed on the cost of that training to the workers themselves. This, despite the fact that training is no more or less an operating cost than, say, the plant or real estate of those businesses. I look at the exploitation of those Saxon serfs and of modern day working people and I see no difference.

All of which has been further exacerbated by an unholy alliance between business, absolving itself of the operating costs of training its workforce, and successive governments, of whatever stripe, exhorting every man and his dog to obtain a degree, so eager have they been to show how everyone can win a prize, such that now it takes a f***ing degree get a job as a HCA in a hospital wiping arses. I know this because my wife is a HCA who got her job 15 years ago, but who would now not stand a chance as there are legions of desperate graduates applying for HCA jobs.

Finally, my brother is the CEO of the largest financial institution of a major UK offshore tax haven. He started out with one A level as a desk clerk for Scarborough Building Society. He freely admits that there is no way anyone would even make it to interview for a desk clerk position in his industry today unless they have a degree.

No doubt, quite apart from more obfuscation and denial on this particular issue, you may well suggest this has got nothing to do with Greece. When, in truth, It has everything to do with it. These thing are all connected. They are all about a political class that has been fully co-opted and bought out by a corporate class. Where politics has become little more than about managing a system that is utterly at odds with the needs of ordinary working people. Where anyone who refuses to accept this system is ignored or ridiculed or vilified or worse.

Corporatist capitalism, the system you have helped to manage and which you are defending here, does not need managing, It needs to be destroyed. It is anti-human.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 28 Jun 2015, 05:41

Printing money is precisely how the EU and USA has dealt with it's banking crisis, which is what has largely led to the sovereign deficits in many European countries, including Greece.

This is precisely the opposite of what has happened in Eurozone countries. It is their inability to print money that has meant that taxpayers have had to cover bank losses instead of the government printing money to cover those losses.

johnhemming · Post by **johnhemming** » 28 Jun 2015, 07:09

>Corporatist capitalism, the system you have helped manage and which you
are defending here, does not need managing, It needs to be destroyed. It is
anti-human.
Without saying everything is perfect it does look like the Greeks intend taking on the system full on.

I thought it was accepted that communism didn't work.

In terms of your children and mine they should look at what they have to pay not the notional contingent liability.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 28 Jun 2015, 07:16

kenneal - lagger wrote:
Printing money is precisely how the EU and USA has dealt with it's banking crisis, which is what has largely led to the sovereign deficits in many European countries, including Greece.
This is precisely the opposite of what has happened in Eurozone countries. It is their inability to print money that has meant that taxpayers have had to cover bank losses instead of the government printing money to cover those losses.

Yes, my mistake Ken. However, if the European banks were about to go under, they presumably did not do so as a consequence of massive monetary injections from their states causing those respective sovereign states to then be massively in debt. In turn, requiring massive austerity from their peoples to pay that money back.

Where did the money come from Ken? The respective states did not have it otherwise they would not been required, in turn, to be bailed out by the EU Troika and the IMF. And so, the next question is where did that money come from? Out of their respective arses is my guess. In other words, my point is, be it direct QE, be it any number of other indirect mechanisms, be it before or after the fact of the bank bailouts, made-up-money has been used to keep the made-up-debts of a banking system relying on a made-up-future to keep from collapsing. Meanwhile, real people in the real world in the here and now are suffering beyond reason in order to hold that corruption up. That they will suffer in any event is undeniable and unavoidable. However, the suffering that is occurring, as it stands, is in order to perpetuate a system that should collapse. That will collapse, sooner or later. The only choice we get is the manner of that collapse.

What replaces it will be an extreme political and economic response to an extreme economic circumstance. It will be either hard left or hard right, Those people currently in charge will be prepared, I have no doubt, if push comes to shove, to deal with the hard right, since this allows them to continue to exist and to maintain their power in some form. They will never willingly countenance the hard left, however, since they know full well this will mean they lose that power. If we, the people, simply lie back and let all of this happen to us, then a fascist future awaits us. Hell, you can feel it around the edges of Western culture right now.

johnhemming · Post by **johnhemming** » 28 Jun 2015, 07:37

The point about government borrowing for refinancing the banks, however, is
a) That it is a one off.
b) There is a good chance of making a profit for the tax payer. The UK is on the edge on this because of RBS where the share price is still too low for the government to make a profit. I think if the government held on for a couple of years they would make a profit, however.

The big exception in this is Ireland which has really been hit hard. They do have a strong argument for the EZ to be sympathetic.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 28 Jun 2015, 08:46

http://cancelgreekdebt.org/en/

Break the chains of Greece’s debt!

The petition:

We, the citizens of countries across Europe, call for:

A European conference to agree debt cancellation for Greece and other countries that need it, informed by debt audits and funded by recovering money from the banks and financial speculators who were the real beneficiaries of bailouts.

An end to the enforcing of austerity policies that are causing injustice and poverty in Europe and across the world.

The creation of UN rules to deal with government debt crises promptly, fairly and with respect for human rights, and to signal to the banks and financiers that we won’t keep bailing them out for reckless lending.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 28 Jun 2015, 08:51

And Birgitta Jónsdóttir Hirt, Icelendic MP, just tweeted:

The same nations who tried to force Icelandic taxpayers to take on unbearable burden of private debt are doing the same to Greece. Shameful.

The negative spiral Greece has been put into is just like what has been done to most developing countries. IMF often been key player.

To give the power to your nation through a national referendum on issues that will effect every citizen is of course the right thing to do.

Remember when central banks talk about financial stability, it has nothing to do with the wellbeing of the people in any given country

And

Remember when central banks talk about financial stability, it has nothing to do with the wellbeing of the people in any given country
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKpxPo-lInk

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 28 Jun 2015, 09:04

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33302526

Greek MPs back referendum on bailout

Greece's parliament has backed plans for a referendum on its international creditors' terms for a new bailout.

The 5 July referendum was called by PM Alexis Tsipras, who urged voters to reject the proposal, which demanded reforms in return for loans.

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 28 Jun 2015, 10:51

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33303105

ECB 'to end Greek bank lifeline'

The European Central Bank is expected to end emergency lending to Greece's banks on Sunday, the BBC understands.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 28 Jun 2015, 11:02

Background to Greece, Fascism Inc is a crowd-funded documentary on the rise of neo-fascism in Greece and Europe and the role of the economic elites

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L5Xlgc8S2Q

http://infowarproductions.com/fasismosae/

Post by **adam2** » 28 Jun 2015, 11:31

Support for Greek banks to cease from today.
I expect strict limits on withdrawals and the failure of many banks.
Followed by riots.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33303105

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 28 Jun 2015, 11:44

Does look like the inevitable is finally going to happen.