JavaScriptDonkey wrote:
Are you seriously suggesting that a 4th Reich is nascent and looking greedily towards the Med?
JSD actually it is ye who are suggesting this and attempting to put words in my mouth...
It is this sort of tedious misdirection and debating society tricks that seem to have driven a lot of interesting people off forum.
I quote,
"Quite simply they are trying to achieve economically what
they previously failed to achieve militarily."
So actually it is you suggesting there is a continuity between the atrocities of WW2 and modern democratic Europe. I think such a suggestion is left-wing madness but each to his own.
For Germany to project enough force to secure their raw materials throughout the world they would have to invest massively in military infrastructure including nuclear weapons. The nuclear weapons would be required because the countries that they would be up fighting against in their quest would be Russia, China, the USA and, to a lesser extent, the French and us, all of whom have nuclear weapons themselves and might be expected to either use them or threaten their use.
Germany has got itself into its current position of wealth because it has not had to, or wanted to, spend a vast amount of its wealth on a massive military with the ability to project force overseas. It has relied on the protection of its own defence forces, much cheaper than offensive forces, and the much larger and more expensive offensively capable forces of the US, France and GB.
If Germany were to go down the route of militarism that would impinge greatly on the wealth of the German people, their taxes would significantly increase, and their economy would suffer as the Germans could not save money and buy the goods which they produce. It would have a recessionary effect on the German economy.
Germany has gained much of the benefit that Hitler wanted by its economic power. Just as the US has had a virtual world empire through the strength of the dollar and the requirement for the world to hold dollars to trade, Germany has gained that advantage in the EU and the Eurozone. As the dominant economy in the Eurozone the interest rates have been set to the advantage of the Germans and the disadvantage of virtually the whole of the rest of the Eurozone.
The wealth of the Eurozone has flown towards Germany just as it would have done during the Third Reich. The Eurozone has, in effect, been the Forth Reich for Germany. I am not suggesting "there is a continuity between the atrocities of WW2 and modern democratic Europe" just that the Germans have achieved in a peaceful, up to now, way much of what Hitler set out to achieve militarily, just as the USA have done worldwide with the dollar.
The EU was publicly mooted after the war as a way for Germany and France to avoid military conflict but, privately, to achieve what Hitler had not been able to, a unified Europe. A unified Europe that benefited Germany and France at the expense of the other countries should not be beyond comprehension. The CAP works very well for France, and only a little less well for Germany, while the monetary policy works well for Germany and a little less well for France. All in all, both do very well thank you. That we are not paying through the nose, only through one nostril, is down to Thatcher and her negotiation of a rebate, with no thanks to Tony Bleh's give away!
kenneal - lagger wrote:
Germany has got itself into its current position of wealth because it has not had to, or wanted to, spend a vast amount of its wealth on a massive military with the ability to project force overseas.
kenneal - lagger wrote:
Germany has got itself into its current position of wealth because it has not had to, or wanted to, spend a vast amount of its wealth on a massive military with the ability to project force overseas.
There's a lesson in there! Pacifism pays.
It surely does. Which is another good reason to recompense the Greeks.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
JavaScriptDonkey wrote:
"Quite simply they are trying to achieve economically what
they previously failed to achieve militarily."
So actually it is you suggesting there is a continuity between the atrocities of WW2 and modern democratic Europe. I think such a suggestion is left-wing madness but each to his own.
No JSD it is you that are suggesting that not me. Accuse away I really
don't care or can take seriously the rantings of a tiresome troll.
Perhaps another way of viewing the matter is to consider wether Germany
or Greece would be the more desireable and sustainable place to live as the high tech civilisation project grinds on to its conclusion...
The German model involves huge resource inputs to produce expensive high tech goods which are already getting unaffordable in other EC countries. Germany leaving the euro and using an ubermark would just make these even more unaffordable.
Overconfidence, not just expert overconfidence but general overconfidence,
is one of the most common illusions we experience. Stan Robinson
More evidence of shifting moods in the Eurozone. Where was it I read that the first country to leave the Euro would be Germany?
The article quotes them as saying “We find it ridiculous that our Federal Chancellor tries to turn the lovely people of Greece, Italy and France into Prussians. She will never manage to do that. It will not work and it will bring disunity instead of unity in Europe ,”
Hard to disagree with that.
Overconfidence, not just expert overconfidence but general overconfidence,
is one of the most common illusions we experience. Stan Robinson
JavaScriptDonkey wrote:
"Quite simply they are trying to achieve economically what
they previously failed to achieve militarily."
So actually it is you suggesting there is a continuity between the atrocities of WW2 and modern democratic Europe. I think such a suggestion is left-wing madness but each to his own.
No JSD it is you that are suggesting that not me. Accuse away I really
don't care or can take seriously the rantings of a tiresome troll.
I can't let you get away with this.
Your phrase referenced a 'they' twice and the intended inference was that that both clauses were related.
You cannot say 'they failed to kill the chickens so they went and killed the ducks' without implying a direct relationship between the two events.
There is no 'they'; there is no continuity between the militaristic Third Reich and modern democratic Germany. Modern Germans did not try to do any by military force as they were not born.
Try wriggling some more, your bias is clear for all to see.
kenneal - lagger wrote:
Germany has got itself into its current position of wealth because it has not had to, or wanted to, spend a vast amount of its wealth on a massive military with the ability to project force overseas.
There's a lesson in there! Pacifism pays.
So long as you have the massive military might of the US to stop the Soviet tanks rolling over your fields.
This has nothing to do with Greece. Karlsruhe is in Germany.
If I came to you with a claim that the house you lived in was stolen from me by a forged will 50 years ago would you even consider just handing it over?
My point is that the present-day prosperity of certain countries owes more than people would like to admit, to plundering of other countries in the past. The UK is of course a prime example. And so, to some extent, is Germany (or specifically, its industry rather than its individuals). The difference, and you could say it's a very significant one, is that the German antics are still within living memory, and the paperwork is extant.
Were I not a solitary impecunious individual Renewable, but instead a large chemical conglomerate who wishes, for sound commercial reasons, to maintain a good reputation among my buying public, I would in fact seriously consider handing that house over.
I think that Germany may loose patience soon !
Especialy as no one outside the political class really belives that most of the money will ever be returned.
"Installers and owners of emergency diesels must assume that they will have to run for a week or more"
I think that Germany may loose patience soon !
Especialy as no one outside the political class really belives that most of the money will ever be returned.
There comes a time when no more "austerity" can be imposed.
Whether or not there comes a time when no more money be delivered is less certain, because it is always possible to PRINT more fiat currency for the Greeks. Will the Germans lose patience? If they do, then I believe the only way out for them is to leave the Eurozone. I don't think they will be able to impose a "no more money for Greece" end to this.
While there are opposing factions involved, bringing in the military is as much to blame as anything.
On Thursday, Interior Minister Angelino Alfano voiced concerns that the unrest could "lead to a spiral of rebellion against national and European institutions." He told lawmakers that although the government understood "the suffering of poor people," it would not allow the violence to continue.
And what're this 'peoples party' doing about the suffering? Trying to eliminate the symptoms, not the causes:
The new law, drafted by Spain's ruling People's Party, would introduce fines for activists taking part in unauthorized protests, publishing images of police, or interrupting public events.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
Syriza wants to reshape the way the Greek state functions, towards democratization and against the corruption of previous governments. It wants to provide the necessary room for self-organization initiatives and attempts at a solidaristic and cooperative economy
But will they be allowed to do so? I hope so. I doubt so.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
