Financial markets reeling after France and Greece elections

[Aurora]

Then what did you mean by

I am trying to cut my self from the system

You seem somewhat confused.

lol

if your going to quote atleast quote properly!!

I am trying to cut my self from the system as much as i can

What gives you the divine right to ignore your responsibilities?

To take advantage of a system then surely you should also make a contribution.

[nexus]

The only way for a family to achieve total self sufficiency is to refuse the many advantages (not least of all health care and education) which are currently being paid for and serviced by their contemporaries.

Aurora, do you feel pissed off about paying for services for other people that you or your family don't personally use?

I actually know some people who never go to the doctor or hospital (although I think this is because they are healthy and don't have accidents) and home educate their children. They earn a small income and pay tax on this, so they are paying towards a health and education system that they don't use.

With this tax system we all pay for some things we don't use.

[Aurora]

The only way for a family to achieve total self sufficiency is to refuse the many advantages (not least of all health care and education) which are currently being paid for and serviced by their contemporaries.

Aurora, do you feel pissed off about paying for services for other people that you or your family don't personally use?

I actually know some people who never go to the doctor or hospital (although I think this is because they are healthy and don't have accidents) and home educate their children. They earn a small income and pay tax on this, so they are paying towards a health and education system that they don't use.

With this tax system we all pay for some things we don't use.

Sorry to disappoint you Nexus, but my family and I have a lot to thank the NHS for. I won't go into details, suffice to say that the costs of major surgery and after care would have been astronomical.

Many of my friends and former colleagues have also taken advantage of our healthcare system over the past few years and still continue to do so.

That definitely wasn't my point and based on my previous comments over the years about the health service, I'm surprised at you for suggesting it.

To summarise, we should ALL contribute to a system which, although increasingly faulty, is there for ALL when required.

If you are sick, disabled, unemployed or disadvantaged in any way, shape or form, then of course the system should be there to give 100% support.

If you are able bodied, in work, fit and healthy, then why shouldn't society expect a contribution?

This has nothing whatsoever to do with PO or CC. Once again, it's a question of personal responsibility.

[hodson2k9]

Then what did you mean by
You seem somewhat confused.

lol

if your going to quote atleast quote properly!!

I am trying to cut my self from the system as much as i can

What gives you the divine right to ignore your responsibilities?

To take advantage of a system then surely you should also make a contribution.

Not being funny but i really don't have a clue what the hell your going on about.

I think your misunderstanding what im saying my friend.

[Aurora]

Not being funny but i really don't have a clue what the hell your going on about.

I think your misunderstanding what im saying my friend.

That's strange, I didn't think literacy was your strong point.

I haven't created nothing

Anyway, enough.

I do not intend to continue playing mind games with you.

I have made my views on the matter fairly plain and to continue would be futile.

[hodson2k9]

I thought everyone here would be trying to rely on the system as less as they could? After all its this current system that is at root to most of the problems we are facing.

When i say cut myself off from the system as much as i can, i mean growing my own food etc instead of buying from supermarkets which ship in food from all over the world thus worsening the problems of peak oil, climate change etc.

As i said i really don't know what you are getting at Aurora. You have quite rightly pointed out that without the system i can't survive, yet somehow i must take the blame for that? Well im sorry but that is b****x imo.

As i said i was born into this current system and i have no other choice but to participate in it unless i wish to die. Therefore i will not be included in the "world we have created" when as i said i have not created it, i have merely been born into it and had it forced upon me.

However after finding out about peak oil etc i have tried the best i can to reduce emissions, spread the word etc take responsibility and reduce my participation in the system, which as i stated is the root cause for all our problems.

But taking action now doesn't mean im agreeing that i have "created this world" because i haven't. Im taking action now, because although i haven't created this world, im still part of it and am affected by it.

So Aurora could you please elaborate on what your trying to say because im confused.

[hodson2k9]

Not being funny but i really don't have a clue what the hell your going on about.

I think your misunderstanding what im saying my friend.

That's strange, I didn't think literacy was your strong point.

I haven't created nothing

Anyway, enough.

I do not intend to continue playing mind games with you.

I have made my views on the matter fairly plain and to continue would be futile.

lol

Whatever, get a grip man.

[extractorfan]

Aurora was trying to get you to agree that you are part of the "We".

Every single person who has evr been born has been born into a system. Over time the various sytems have been changed, sometimes for good, sometimes for bad.

We are responsible for this system if we do not try to change it.

I don't do enough, you (hodson) don't do enough. We could always do more.

You have chosen to think about why we are where we are. That's good, I hope many other people choose to think about things whilst we still have the freedom to think and talk about issues that concern us without being hung for doing so. As a part of one of the most liberated members of human society in history, we should take advantage and encourage others to do so by as varied a means as possible.

Edit: Should have typed, "as a member of one of the most liberated human societies..."

[hodson2k9]

Aurora was trying to get you to agree that you are part of the "We".

Yes i agree im part of we and that is why im taking action now (growing own food etc), but i am not part of the we when used in a sentence like "the world we have created".

Every single person who has evr been born has been born into a system. Over time the various sytems have been changed, sometimes for good, sometimes for bad.

We are responsible for this system if we do not try to change it.

Yes you are correct, but my point is people don't know the consequences of there actions in participating in the system and so therefore have no reason to try change the system.

As i said i have tried my best to change the way i live since learning of peak oil and spread the message, im sure most people on earth would do the same if they were told the truth about the dire situation we find ourselves, but they don't know and so therefore cant act.

I don't do enough, you (hodson) don't do enough. We could always do more.

In what sense? Yes i could do more in trying to cut my emissions etc but in the grand scheme of things what can i really do? Nothing is the answer.

Even cutting my emissions by buying less fuel (if i drove) etc wouldn't make any difference what so ever, as some other bugger would buy that fuel anyway (by the way im just making a point, im not endorsing what i just wrote)

Only when the crisis hits or the masses are told the truth by msm or governments can, changes that will actually make a difference, happen.

[extractorfan]

In what sense? Yes i could do more in trying to cut my emissions etc but in the grand scheme of things what can i really do? Nothing is the answer.

Only when the crisis hits or the masses are told the truth by msm or governments can change truly happen.

Governments don't tell the truth, I accept that. But you could stand for election at local or national level. There's never no point because some people will wonder what you're going on about. There's always independent media like youtube, there's always leaflets, there's other local fringe parties.

I've written to my mp recently, not about issue's discussed here but hey, you never know if he will enter into a dialogue with me. I've had a look at the pirate party someone posted a link to on here. I like what they're saying, again though, nothing about sustainability but it's about having the conversation.

Isolating myself as much as possible isn't going to work, however much the doomer porn lovers may think it will help them. There's just too damn many people.

So really, it's all semantic. I am part of the we. I am part of the world or system that will be created. I was not part of the system created up to about 1994 when I became pretty much an independent adult.

[hodson2k9]

In what sense? Yes i could do more in trying to cut my emissions etc but in the grand scheme of things what can i really do? Nothing is the answer.

Only when the crisis hits or the masses are told the truth by msm or governments can change truly happen.

Governments don't tell the truth, I accept that. But you could stand for election at local or national level. There's never no point because some people will wonder what you're going on about. There's always independent media like youtube, there's always leaflets, there's other local fringe parties.

I've written to my mp recently, not about issue's discussed here but hey, you never know if he will enter into a dialogue with me. I've had a look at the pirate party someone posted a link to on here. I like what they're saying, again though, nothing about sustainability but it's about having the conversation.

Isolating myself as much as possible isn't going to work, however much the doomer porn lovers may think it will help them. There's just too damn many people.

Yes all those things are good but again it will never enable the change needed, as i said we can't compete with msm.

So really, it's all semantic. I am part of the we. I am part of the world or system that will be created. I was not part of the system created up to about 1994 when I became pretty much an independent adult.

Ok! what about this,

you (and me) are part of the system, but you (and me) didn't create the system, this is my point, and were all part of the system through no fault of our own, we have no choice (most don't anyway).

[extractorfan]

well hodson, it may seem hopeless, it could well be hopeless, but when my son asks me when he's a teenager "what did you do dad?" I'll have to have something to offer. I'll have at least to have tried.

The political system stinks but it's all we have. There is an opportunity right now with so many people totally disconnected from the system, wanting change but not knowing how to go about it but relatively IT literate in terms of social media use and growing followings.

I'm an optomistic person who accepts things could go totally to shit, but I'd like us to remain as free as possible on the way down the slope. I want as many oportunities to flourish to be left on the other side as possible.

blimey, has this thread gone off topic or what!!!

[hodson2k9]

well hodson, it may seem hopeless, it could well be hopeless, but when my son asks me when he's a teenager "what did you do dad?" I'll have to have something to offer. I'll have at least to have tried.

Yes i agree with you, we still have to try i was just making a point

Everyone alive, who knows of peak oil etc has to take some kind of action and responsibility im not dis agreeing with that.

What im dis agreeing with is the "world we have created" line, which is total nonsense.

[emordnilap]

well hodson, it may seem hopeless, it could well be hopeless, but when my son asks me when he's a teenager "what did you do dad?" I'll have to have something to offer. I'll have at least to have tried.

Strange, only last evening, there I was digging away and imagining a conversation something like:

• "So why did they need all that energy, dad?"
  
  "I dunno, son, they didn't really need it, they just thought they did.
  They were just lazy I suppose. Energy was sort of lying around, it was so easy to use and they didn't have the brains to think of a better use for it."
  
  "And why were they always dashing around everywhere?
  It looks like they thought they should be somewhere else and they used up all this energy to get there. When they got there, they wanted to be back where they started!
  And they did it all the time, every day, loads of times a day sometimes. Why?"
  
  "Son, they didn't know any better, their brains hadn't developed enough, not like yours has."

Daft, I know. You can carry it on if you like.

[UndercoverElephant]

Aren't we supposed to be providing some sort of guidance to people new to these issues?

If we aren't, I'm not sure what the point in this board is.

I totally agree but surely that doesn't give any one of us the right to completely opt out of our collective responsibility to a system which does have it's advantages.

I'm doing a pretty good job of opting out myself...

I'm not responsible for creating this insane and immoral system, and I've been fighting it for as long as I've been politically aware.