Haiti Earthquake Disaster

Aurora · Post by **Aurora** » 16 Jan 2010, 20:40

biffvernon wrote:The DEC appeal has now raised 12 million. Haiti owes the IMF $890 million.

The world is a mess, but it isn't the fault of crushed children.

http://one.org/international/actnow/haiti/

Thanks for the link Biff.

Totally_Baffled · Post by **Totally_Baffled** » 16 Jan 2010, 20:45

Yeah thanks Biff - I have now donated!

2 As and a B · Post by **2 As and a B** » 16 Jan 2010, 20:54

Vortex wrote:
gangs armed with machetes running wild
Just a normal day in Haiti ... nothing to do with the earthquake.

Just the sort of dumb comment I'd expect from a BNP supporter.

jonny2mad · Post by **jonny2mad** » 16 Jan 2010, 21:04

well I think vortex was being ironic

Aurora · Post by **Aurora** » 16 Jan 2010, 21:10

Strange, I thought he was being moronic.

jonny2mad · Post by **jonny2mad** » 16 Jan 2010, 21:16

Well when i read it ,I thought he was getting at me for not understanding it was the earthquake causing the machete gangs .

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 16 Jan 2010, 22:29

Time for a more sensible view (hat tip Derek Wall)
http://another-green-world.blogspot.com ... aitis.html

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 17 Jan 2010, 09:54

Or at least, not directly. It's the buildings that kill people. The unfolding tragedy of Haiti should provoke more than an immediate response to the humanitarian appeal for aid but, at least amongst those with an interest and expertise in building, discussion about how to prevent these recurring disasters. There is a green building perspective that might be brought to bear. Conventional wisdom is to make buildings 'earthquake proof' and there are high-tech approaches to making buildings flexible and strong, sufficient to allow high-rise buildings in Tokyo and San Francisco. (Of course they are not earthquake 'proof', only resistant. It is possible that an earthquake of sufficient magnitude to flatten Tokyo could occur.) Most important is that these engineering solutions add cost, a cost which makes the process irrelevant to the poorest countries.

I first became interested in the subject as a geology undergraduate attending a lecture about the then recent San Fernando earthquake in 1971. I clearly remember viewing slides showing the contrast in damage done to buildings built with concrete slabs and those that were timber framed. The first lay flat as a fallen house of cards, the latter remained unscathed. Since 1971 building codes in California have changed and modern buildings should stay standing. In Haita (or Turkey, or Iran, or Pakistan, or China, as we have seen since 1971) such building codes do not obtain. So today, once again, we see the tragic pictures of reinforced concrete beams and slabs lying on the ground, crushing all below and utterly immovable without the non-existent heavy lifting gear.

I do have a general antipathy, for various environmental and architectural reasons, towards Ordinary Portland Cement, but in the case of earthquake prone regions where poverty prevents application of effective building codes, concrete is simply a killer. Haiti was, still should be, thickly forested. It is a land where, were it not for the rich world's plundering of it's forest resources, construction timber should be cheaply available. Tragically, we have have stolen the trees and in their place we have sold them cement, racking up their debts in the process. Bad governance and a willingness by the rich world to exploit, compound the issue.

The green solution is the banning of cement and the promotion of the use of indigenous timber for construction. The wins are multiple, not least in the aftermath of an earthquake.

ziggy12345 · Post by **ziggy12345** » 17 Jan 2010, 15:02

..All they have to do is wait 130 years for the trees to grow so they can use it to build houses.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 17 Jan 2010, 16:19

Order of magnitude out, Ziggy. Usable timber can be grown in 13 years. (Or less.)

jonny2mad · Post by **jonny2mad** » 17 Jan 2010, 17:44

did "we" steal the trees or did they sell them to us or chop them down for firewood .
you say we sold them cement what are they paying "us " with if it isnt money they got for trees or something else .
maybe they value cement more than trees

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 17 Jan 2010, 17:54

jonny2mad wrote: you say we sold them cement what are they paying "us " with if it isnt money they got for trees or something else .

The IMF loan.

You don't imagine that when the IMF makes a loan the money actually ends up in the poor country, do you?

2 As and a B · Post by **2 As and a B** » 17 Jan 2010, 19:11

jonny2mad wrote:did "we" steal the trees or did they sell them to us or chop them down for firewood .
you say we sold them cement what are they paying "us " with if it isnt money they got for trees or something else .
maybe they value cement more than trees

You just don't get it do you?

Haiti has been run as a satellite of the USA, ruled by puppet dictators and with any attempt at democracy (the people's choice) snubbed out by US-backed coups.

You say the Haitians should be left to their own devices, to sort out their own problems. In an ideal world, that would be great, but in the real world the US, controlled by industry, will continue to meddle in Haiti, to the benefit of US industry.

IMF loan = debt. Loan from IMF (a US-run organisation) puts Haiti in debt, some money goes to corrupt officials, some to US corporations in contracts, cost loan repayments is taken from the populace. Who benefits?

Vortex · Post by **Vortex** » 17 Jan 2010, 20:50

foodimista wrote:
Vortex wrote:
gangs armed with machetes running wild
Just a normal day in Haiti ... nothing to do with the earthquake.
Just the sort of dumb comment I'd expect from a BNP supporter.

Hey - since when am I a BNP supporter?

That's a certain other poster here if you don't mind!

Vortex · Post by **Vortex** » 17 Jan 2010, 20:55

Aurora wrote:Strange, I thought he was being moronic.

Just telling the truth ... the place was a hell hole before the earthquake, and is even more of one now.

It's a bit touchy-feely to get all charitable NOW, when in fact the people have been suffering for MANY years, with little in the way of support from outside.