Brexit process

[Snail]

You're wasting your time little john.


Why won't remainers listen?

Because they care too much about money.

I think that's what it boils down to.

Which class suffers from the endless supply of cheap labour. Which profits from it?

What's the main arguments for remainers? Economic ones.

But which class took these onboard and still voted leave?

Why? Because some things are more important than money. Unless you're a member of the petite bourgeoisie, of course.

[UndercoverElephant]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... weeks.html

Latest polling.

Looking good for the Tories and prospects of a hard Brexit

It means nothing. All sorts of things can happen between now and when the election is called, let alone when it is held.

The headline is misleading anyway. Firstly it is just one poll, and second, in the current political situation, the tories doubling their lead over labour just doesn't count for very much. All that has happened is that Johnson is winning back tories who defected to the brexit party.

Trying to predict who is going to win this election is a mug's game: everybody will get it wrong.

Having said that, I am going to change my prediction about what will happen next week...

I think parliament is going to pass a law making no deal illegal, probably by altering the Withdrawal Act 2018 to make it illegal to leave without a deal. Assuming Johnson doesn't simply break that law, and that May's deal still won't pass, he then has to call an election before the end of October, or get an extension from the EU and call an election in November.

[Little John]

If they make it illegal to leave without a deal under the terms of the withdrawal act, why does that mean the UK will not then simply drop out of the EU on October 31st under the terms of A50?

And the only way that is stopped is via revocation of A50.

Which, is, of course, the one thing that the spineless traitors in parliament dare not be seen to do.

[UndercoverElephant]

If they make it illegal to leave without a deal under the terms of the withdrawal act, why does that mean the UK will not then simply drop out of the EU on October 31st under the terms of A50?

Because that would be illegal. The government is not above the law. It's like somebody letting their car insurance expire - just because they've literally "done nothing" doesn't make it any less illegal. Johnson actually wants to be Prime Minister for a few years, and that won't happen if he tries to take the UK out of the EU with no deal after parliament has made it illegal.

And the only way that is stopped is via revocation of A50.

Which, is, of course, the one thing that the spineless traitors in parliament dare not be seen to do.

He can either revoke a50, pass a deal, or get an extension. Getting an extension would require him to agree to hold an election or a second referendum, or the EU might refuse.

And it is pretty obvious he'll go for the election, yelling "Look what those bastards in parliament made me do!"

[Potemkin Villager]

I suspect that the O/P means that whichever side loses, that they wont peacefully accept this, but will endlessly demand reviews, studies, protests and legal action.

If we end up remaining, those whom supported leaving will be aggrieved, perhaps violently so.

If we do actually leave, then remainers will be looking for ways to declare leaving in some way illegal or non democratic or unconstitutional, and demanding that we return.

Yep A2 that is a good summary the essential problem is that no outcome seems possible to be a good outcome. Even if an agreed leave is achieved, whatever the details and compromises, there will be very disenchanted elements on both sides that feel whatever has been (very painfully) achieved can never ever possibly be good enough and must either be improved further or undone.

There is then the not insubstantial matter of having got over one hurdle then needing to negotiate and agree a whole rake of complex new relationships with foreigners who are weary of nothing ever seeming to be good enough for the Brits. ( Can you imagine just how fast the initial good will of UK-US trade talks might melt down to be replaced by mutual belligerence?)

This is not even a zero sum game it is a less than zero sum game

Bullshit.

There is an outcome that is entirely reasonable and this is to enact the result of a democratically held referendum.

All this complete hogwash which takes the form of - because the result was "close" it's not as "simple" as merely enacting the result - is just a load of dangerously dishonest bullshit by petite bourgeois remainers who don't like democracy when it does not go their way and have been culturally encouraged and facilitated by the bourgeois class above them to stamp their feet until they get their way

You are deranged. .

[Little John]

You are deranged. .

Rightho

[kenneal - lagger]

.....................Absolutely, we has a system of fiscal transfers within the four nations of the UK. If, Bleanau Ffestiniog is not doing too well, then Basildon picks up the slack and transfers money to the people of Blaenau.This money to fund schools, hospitals, the Police etc is Given, not loaned, not given with strings attached, just given.

An independent Scotland receives and gives these fiscal transfers.

If Indy Scotland goes through a period of not doing too well, do you really think the German Finance minister will transfer billions with no strings attached?
Did they do that for Greece? Or did Greece get a fiscal waterboarding which resulted in mass suicides and still levels of youth employment of 50%.............

That is not completely correct, Stu. There is a system for transferring money in the EU, Target 2, which is not working very well at the moment. Although it is supposedly a loan there is not much chance of the money ever being paid back as the Greek economy and the Italian and Spanish ones are so much in the doldrums because of a lack of local control over the currency and inappropriate interest rates set mainly for the German economy that they could never find the money to pay it back. This references the paper on the problems with the system and how it could bring the Eurozone down soon unless there is full fiscal and political union in the Eurozone, that "Ever Closer Union" that we hear so much about. It's from the Cass Business School, City University.

[stumuz1]

Spot on Ken.

Have a listen to this fella on the future of the Euro because of Target 2

This may not end well for Germany.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2QYaJGgtw8

[kenneal - lagger]

He sums the problem up very well indeed Stu. It's been spread around my Facebook Remainer "friends", who either won't read the Cass School paper or can't understand it, as the video is a lot more accessible.

These people think that things will just carry on as normal. They don't seem to notice that Europe lurches from one crisis to another even deeper one and each crisis leads to "Ever Closer Union".

[stumuz1]

Maybe we should have a Target 2 imbalance ticker at the bottom of the page!

[kenneal - lagger]

That would be extremely unbalanced! Might even knock the page sideways!

[Mark]

You're wasting your time little john.


Why won't remainers listen?

Because they care too much about money.

I think that's what it boils down to.

Which class suffers from the endless supply of cheap labour. Which profits from it?

What's the main arguments for remainers? Economic ones.

But which class took these onboard and still voted leave?

Why? Because some things are more important than money. Unless you're a member of the petite bourgeoisie, of course.

So, you implicitly agree that Brexit will be bad economically for everyone ?
But most 'Leavers' have less to lose, because they've got less ?
That's like cutting off your nose to spite your face....

Agree that there are more important things than money, but don't see how Brexit will help with any of those things either....?

[Little John]

So, you implicitly agree that Brexit will be bad economically for everyone ?
But most 'Leavers' have less to lose, because they've got less ?
That's like cutting off your nose to spite your face....

Agree that there are more important things than money, but don't see how Brexit will help with any of those things either....?

In a democracy, you are entitled to believe to be true anything you wish. However, in a democracy, you are not entitled to undemocratically impose your will on others merely because you believe something to be true.

You give every impression of being a supporter of what has amounted to an attempted coup by certain elements of our political class against the one single democratic element in all of this; the 2016 referendum. In other words, against the demos. If that is an accurate description of you, then you and those like you are arguably traitors to this nation and are unarguably traitors to the demos.

I am not being hyperbolic I assure you. I am quite serious. I happen to know a significant number of Remainers who are utterly appalled at what has been attempted by the Remainer flank of the political class and fully accept that Brexit must now happen irrespective of their own views. Thankfully, they are, I think now in the majority of even the Remainer part of the population if current trends in the polls are anything to go by.

Nevertheless, there is a shrinking, but hardening element in the Remainer camp that are quite clearly antidemocratic. Fascistic, in other words, in their attempts to overturn the democratic vote of 2016.

So, I am going to ask you straight Mark. Do you accept that Breixt should happen for the sake of the demos irrespective of your own views? Or do you not accept that?

A yes or no will do.

[kenneal - lagger]

Mark, watch the video that Stu put up on the previous page or, for a fuller explanation, read the paper referenced in the URL in my post above Stu's on one of the reasons why I think that we should leave before TSHTF.

If we leave we will suffer for a while although some economists say it would be less than a year while if we stay in we could either be dragged into a full fiscal and political union or we will be dragged down as the Euro dies around us. I would rather not be on the sinking ship as it goes down. Being along side will be bad enough.

[Snail]

You're wasting your time little john.


Why won't remainers listen?

Because they care too much about money.

I think that's what it boils down to.

Which class suffers from the endless supply of cheap labour. Which profits from it?

What's the main arguments for remainers? Economic ones.

But which class took these onboard and still voted leave?

Why? Because some things are more important than money. Unless you're a member of the petite bourgeoisie, of course.

So, you implicitly agree that Brexit will be bad economically for everyone ?
But most 'Leavers' have less to lose, because they've got less ?
That's like cutting off your nose to spite your face....

Agree that there are more important things than money, but don't see how Brexit will help with any of those things either....?

Could be economically bad. Could be economically worse if we stay.

What brexit could do, is remind politicians et al that the people hold the lead. Brexit could've been the equivalent of yanking them back and showing who's boss. This is important, and has grown in importance I feel.

Among other things.

Edit: It's not even showing who's boss. It's to say: Oi, our power mightn't be as much as yours or as hard, but we do have some. Don't forget it.
Otherwise, we're just what..economic slaves?

Mentally, that's not a good way to feel.