Brexit process

[stumuz1]

Yep.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamen ... 1_and_1949

It it wants to, the Commons can abolish the House of Lords and the monarchy, and nobody can stop it. In reality, neither of those institutions would try to block such a move, because doing so would involve the very real risk of another civil war, which the Lords/monarchy would inevitably lose.

Yes, forgot about the parliament acts!

However, the Crown is a different story.

[UndercoverElephant]

Yep.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamen ... 1_and_1949

It it wants to, the Commons can abolish the House of Lords and the monarchy, and nobody can stop it. In reality, neither of those institutions would try to block such a move, because doing so would involve the very real risk of another civil war, which the Lords/monarchy would inevitably lose.

Yes, forgot about the parliament acts!

However, the Crown is a different story.

Different part of the same story, very similar ending. Cromwell abolished both of them in 1649, and when they were restored, they had both been shorn of real power. Both of them represent the interests of the upper class establishment, whereas the commons supposedly represents the common people. The establishment lost the Civil War, and were fortunate escape the fate of their French equivalent.

The commons is sovereign. If you have a commons majority, you can do anything. If don't, you can do very little.

[UndercoverElephant]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49515002

Schools in England are being promised billions more in spending over the next three years, in an announcement from Prime Minister Boris Johnson.

Next year schools will receive a £2.6bn uplift, rising to £4.8bn the following year - with schools spending £7.1bn more than at present by 2022-23.

Election time.

[stumuz1]

The commons is sovereign. If you have a commons majority, you can do anything. If don't, you can do very little.

No, the Commons are not sovereign.


I forgot about the Parliament Acts , especially the 1911 one.

The 1911 Act is a great story in its own right.

Lloyd George basically passed a bill to tax land in the UK, at that time something like 98% of the land was owned by 2% of the people.

Long story short, the vast majority of the people supported the 1911 Act, because it paid for the first old age pension.

The commons trying to do a 1911 act today would not succeed. Neither would an act to abolish the Monarchy work.

So, the 1911 act proves what we already know;

Ultimately, the people are sovereign. Parliament's sovereignty is legal in theory only, as if they passed an act which 98% of the people do not want. It will be ignored.

This is why the controversy this week, will be forgotten about. Half the people support it.

[UndercoverElephant]

It is too early to predict the historical relevance of what is going to happen next week, because nobody yet knows what is going to happen next week.

That is the most extraordinary thing about this whole brexit process. Even at this late stage, nobody knows whether we will actually leave the EU, if we do leave whether it will be with a deal or not, whether the coming election will be before brexit or after, or who will win it. It is like political fiction, except you'd be hard pressed to make this up.

[stumuz1]

Completely agree.

[Potemkin Villager]

And a lot of folk think that if they get through all this it will be the end of the matter whilst it is only the beginning. This is just the phony war it will not be over by Christmas. All I can say is good luck.

[stumuz1]

And a lot of folk think that if they get through all this it will be the end of the matter whilst it is only the beginning

Any details?

[adam2]

And a lot of folk think that if they get through all this it will be the end of the matter whilst it is only the beginning

Any details?

I suspect that the O/P means that whichever side loses, that they wont peacefully accept this, but will endlessly demand reviews, studies, protests and legal action.

If we end up remaining, those whom supported leaving will be aggrieved, perhaps violently so.

If we do actually leave, then remainers will be looking for ways to declare leaving in some way illegal or non democratic or unconstitutional, and demanding that we return.

[Snail]

That's why the sensible option is leave, for the referendum result can back it up.

[stumuz1]

I suspect that the O/P means that whichever side loses, that they wont peacefully accept this, but will endlessly demand reviews, studies, protests and legal action.

If we end up remaining, those whom supported leaving will be aggrieved, perhaps violently so.

If we do actually leave, then remainers will be looking for ways to declare leaving in some way illegal or non democratic or unconstitutional, and demanding that we return.

Largely agree with that, however, being an optimist, I think the strategy is to keep the populace busy.

Transport, FE education, more domestic consumption are but a few examples of the UK pivoting away into a different economic setup.

[Little John]

As an aside:

Lumpen proletariat
Working class people who are not very well educated or politically engaged. Nobody listens to them and their opinions are perennially ignored.

Proletariat
Working class who are well enough educated and are politically engaged. Nobody generally listens to them and their opinions are generally ignored.

Petite Bourgeoisie
Still working class, but usually in better paid jobs and higher levels of education, typically. See themselves as a cut above their fellow working class. Tend to align their opinions with those of the bourgeoisie and ruling class above them on the basis that in doing so, they will bask in their masters' superiority. On the old cotton slave plantations, the field slaves had a word for this kind of other slave who looked down on them. They were called the "House Slaves" - so called because they got to eat the same food as the master, were able to live in the master house, and were given his hand me down clothes to wear. Unsurprisingly, the house slaves were despised by the other slaves even more than they despised the master.

Bourgeoisie
To continue with the slave analogy; the slave managers who work directly for the master. In contemporary terms, the political class and upper tier of corporate management.

So, wanna guess which classes most Remainers and Leavers belong to?

[Lord Beria3]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... weeks.html

Latest polling.

Looking good for the Tories and prospects of a hard Brexit

[Potemkin Villager]

I suspect that the O/P means that whichever side loses, that they wont peacefully accept this, but will endlessly demand reviews, studies, protests and legal action.

If we end up remaining, those whom supported leaving will be aggrieved, perhaps violently so.

If we do actually leave, then remainers will be looking for ways to declare leaving in some way illegal or non democratic or unconstitutional, and demanding that we return.

Yep A2 that is a good summary the essential problem is that no outcome seems possible to be a good outcome. Even if an agreed leave is achieved, whatever the details and compromises, there will be very disenchanted elements on both sides that feel whatever has been (very painfully) achieved can never ever possibly be good enough and must either be improved further or undone.

There is then the not insubstantial matter of having got over one hurdle then needing to negotiate and agree a whole rake of complex new relationships with foreigners who are weary of nothing ever seeming to be good enough for the Brits. ( Can you imagine just how fast the initial good will of UK-US trade talks might melt down to be replaced by mutual belligerence?)

This is not even a zero sum game it is a less than zero sum game

[Little John]

I suspect that the O/P means that whichever side loses, that they wont peacefully accept this, but will endlessly demand reviews, studies, protests and legal action.

If we end up remaining, those whom supported leaving will be aggrieved, perhaps violently so.

If we do actually leave, then remainers will be looking for ways to declare leaving in some way illegal or non democratic or unconstitutional, and demanding that we return.

Yep A2 that is a good summary the essential problem is that no outcome seems possible to be a good outcome. Even if an agreed leave is achieved, whatever the details and compromises, there will be very disenchanted elements on both sides that feel whatever has been (very painfully) achieved can never ever possibly be good enough and must either be improved further or undone.

There is then the not insubstantial matter of having got over one hurdle then needing to negotiate and agree a whole rake of complex new relationships with foreigners who are weary of nothing ever seeming to be good enough for the Brits. ( Can you imagine just how fast the initial good will of UK-US trade talks might melt down to be replaced by mutual belligerence?)

This is not even a zero sum game it is a less than zero sum game

Bullshit.

There is an outcome that is entirely reasonable and this is to enact the result of a democratically held referendum.

All this complete hogwash which takes the form of - because the result was "close" it's not as "simple" as merely enacting the result - is just a load of dangerously dishonest bullshit by petite bourgeois remainers who don't like democracy when it does not go their way and have been culturally encouraged and facilitated by the bourgeois class above them to stamp their feet until they get their way