Brexit process

[adam2]

Parliament is sovereign. It can so whatever it can find a majority for. That includes repealing the Fixed Term Parliament Act and abolishing the monarchy.

Wrong, Queen in Parliament is Sovereign.

In theory, yes the Queen could overrule parliament, but in practice parliament IS sovereign due to the long standing convention that the Queen does not get involved in politics, but acts according to the advice from Her ministers.

[ReserveGrowthRulz]

Suspect we'll also need to retain our British sense of humour over the coming months....
In RGR's world, we'd all be blasting each other with Magnums...

In RGR's world, there is no need to even get excited, because there are no Royals around to disband democratic institutions. Where I live, we learned that lesson more than a quarter millennia ago.

Don't blame me for the Old World's slow learners.

And for the record, there is no requirement to use MAGNUMS to blast each other with, well placed shots from normal calibers work just fine when it comes to home or personal defense and whatnot. Stop learning about the American right to self defense from Dirty Harry movies and you'll be better off.

[Little John]

For the record, states that have continued into the modern age to have a largely decorative head of state in the form of a constitutional monarchy, counter-intuitively also tend to be the states with the most stable democracies

[Little John]

Genuine question - polite answer only please.

I'll answer tonight.....politely!

Thank you
Opinions on Brexit can get very polarised/emotional, so it helps if we all remain polite and civil to each other, as this is a public forum for debate.
Suspect we'll also need to retain our British sense of humour over the coming months....
In RGR's world, we'd all be blasting each other with Magnums...

Too late for that. 3 years of passive aggressive, oh so middle class dehumanizing smears against the working class of this country who had the temerity to vote Leave have radicalised us. We're proper "woke" now thanks very much.

So, I am afraid it wont be going to go back to tea and biscuits and polite conversation now. Too late for that.

[UndercoverElephant]

I have genuinely got no idea what you are talking about, Steve. There's no point in me explaining it again. If Johnson loses a VonC, and Corbyn wins one, then either Johnson makes way or we have a constitutional crisis. I have no idea how anybody who has read the FTPA can come to any other conclusion, because the legislation is very clear.

You've not "explained", you have asserted and have not provided citations to the legislation where that assertion is backed up. You have simply repeated the assertions.

Links please

However, I really can save you the bother. There is precisely nothing in the legislation that that requires the incumbent to leave during those 14 days. He is entirely at liberty to stay put and then call the election, which he is legally required to do. That is, by definition, entirely constitutional.

Steve...

You're wrong. In the UK something can be perfectly legal, but unconstitutional

The end.

[Little John]

So, you are unable to point to the legislation in support of your assertion that, following losing a VoNC, Johnson can be forced to give way to a caretaker government in the 14 day period prior to having to call an election.

Okay.

[UndercoverElephant]

So, you are unable to point to the legislation in support of your assertion that, following losing a VoNC, Johnson can be forced to give way to a caretaker government in the 14 day period prior to having to call an election.

Okay.

I edited the previous post. The UK constitution is not a part of UK law. Something can be legal and yet both politically unacceptable and unconstitutional. Johnson will not get away with staying in Downing Street after losing a VonC if Corbyn subsequently wins one. Parliament would simply decide to sit, and pass a law that does require him to leave.

Parliament really is sovereign. All that matters is that it has the numbers to do what it wants to do, and sufficient time to do it.

[Little John]

So, you are unable to point to the legislation in support of your assertion that, following losing a VoNC, Johnson can be forced to give way to a caretaker government in the 14 day period prior to having to call an election.

Okay.

I edited the previous post. The UK constitution is not a part of UK law. Something can be legal and yet both politically unacceptable and unconstitutional. Johnson will not get away with staying in Downing Street after losing a VonC if Corbyn subsequently wins one. Parliament would simply decide to sit, and pass a law that does require him to leave.

Parliament really is sovereign. All that matters is that it has the numbers to do what it wants to do, and sufficient time to do it.

Okay, I accept that they have that option. But, that is what they would be required to do. Statute is changed with statute and only with statute. But, that is not what you have been asserting. What you have been asserting is that, as things currently stand, Johnson would be forced to give way to a caretaker administration.

Until now.

After much pressing.

[UndercoverElephant]

So, you are unable to point to the legislation in support of your assertion that, following losing a VoNC, Johnson can be forced to give way to a caretaker government in the 14 day period prior to having to call an election.

Okay.

I edited the previous post. The UK constitution is not a part of UK law. Something can be legal and yet both politically unacceptable and unconstitutional. Johnson will not get away with staying in Downing Street after losing a VonC if Corbyn subsequently wins one. Parliament would simply decide to sit, and pass a law that does require him to leave.

Parliament really is sovereign. All that matters is that it has the numbers to do what it wants to do, and sufficient time to do it.

Okay, I accept that they have that option. But, that is what they would be required to do. Statute is changed with statute and only with statute. But, that is not what you have been asserting. What you have been asserting is that, as things currently stand, Johnson would be forced to give way to a caretaker administration.

Until now.

After much pressing.

I'm not sure my position has changed at all, and the bottom line certainly remains the same.

The problem for those who want to stop no deal is the same as it has always been: they have not, so far, been able to assemble a commons majority for a course of action capable of conclusively killing it off. Johnson and Cummings have tried to force this to a conclusion. They are being deliberately antagonistic in order to force the opponents of no deal to either conclusively stop it (at least on October 31st), or accept they have lost. That way they either get a pre-brexit general election they can fight on the best pre-brexit terms available to them, or they get a no deal brexit on October 31st. Either way this current phase of deadlock, which has existed since May's agreement was published, will be over.

Various potential mechanisms still exist for preventing no deal, and parliament now has one week to put up or shut up. They either need to find that elusive majority, or everybody, including the EU, will know that we are heading towards no deal unless the EU capitulates on the backstop.

[stumuz1]

In theory, yes the Queen could overrule parliament, but in practice parliament IS sovereign due to the long standing convention that the Queen does not get involved in politics, but acts according to the advice from Her ministers.

Have to disagree, Adam.

Parliamentary sovereignty is triumvirate. Commons, Lords, Crown.

No Royal Assent. No act of Parliament.

[UndercoverElephant]

Ho ho ho....

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/178 ... al-option/

Gordon Brown has said the European Union will next week "withdraw" the current deadline for Brexit and remove any excuse for no-deal on October 31.

The former Labour Prime Minister said his belief was based on talks with EU leaders in recent days.

In particular, he said he understood that France’s President Macron, the prime mover behind the October 31 deadline when it was agreed in April, no longer insisted upon it.

He said President Macron had demanded a six month extension rather than a year to “sound tough� to a domestic audience six weeks before the European elections.

EU is cacking itself.

[UndercoverElephant]

In theory, yes the Queen could overrule parliament, but in practice parliament IS sovereign due to the long standing convention that the Queen does not get involved in politics, but acts according to the advice from Her ministers.

Have to disagree, Adam.

Parliamentary sovereignty is triumvirate. Commons, Lords, Crown.

No Royal Assent. No act of Parliament.

Are you saying parliament cannot abolish the monarchy and the house of lords if it has a majority to do so?

A civil war was fought and won to make sure everybody knows it can. Charles I lost his head because of it.

[stumuz1]

If I understand your thinking correctly, you believe that Scotland voted 'remain' out of self interest, but with a hard-Brexit will then be happy to remain in the UK out of self interest ?

Absolutely, we has a system of fiscal transfers within the four nations of the UK. If, Bleanau Ffestiniog is not doing too well, then Basildon picks up the slack and transfers money to the people of Blaenau.This money to fund schools, hospitals, the Police etc is Given, not loaned, not given with strings attached, just given.

An independent Scotland receives and gives these fiscal transfers.

If Indy Scotland goes through a period of not doing too well, do you really think the German Finance minister will transfer billions with no strings attached?
Did they do that for Greece? Or did Greece get a fiscal waterboarding which resulted in mass suicides and still levels of youth employment of 50%

Scottish people are not daft. They will vote SNP to keep the UK gove' on their toes, but will not vote for independence.

Also, if I understand you correctly, you believe it was wrong to establish Parliaments/Assemblies in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland ?
You believe that everything should be centrally controlled again from London ?
Or that we should set up a separate English Parliament ?
Genuine question - polite answer only please.

No, if the other 3 nations got parliaments, then England should have got a Parliament as well, with Westminster being the central UK Parliament for non devolved matters. Such as defence, tax etc.

Btw, I am always polite. My children sometimes read these pages and I have never been abusive but have engaged in robust debate, a skill they have picked up in adult life!

[stumuz1]

In theory, yes the Queen could overrule parliament, but in practice parliament IS sovereign due to the long standing convention that the Queen does not get involved in politics, but acts according to the advice from Her ministers.

Have to disagree, Adam.

Parliamentary sovereignty is triumvirate. Commons, Lords, Crown.

No Royal Assent. No act of Parliament.

Are you saying parliament cannot abolish the monarchy and the house of lords if it has a majority to do so?

A civil war was fought and won to make sure everybody knows it can. Charles I lost his head because of it.

Okay, do you have an a valid statute if it does not pass the lords?

The Commons is not parliament. Parliament is the commons, Lords, and Crown

[UndercoverElephant]

Have to disagree, Adam.

Parliamentary sovereignty is triumvirate. Commons, Lords, Crown.

No Royal Assent. No act of Parliament.

Are you saying parliament cannot abolish the monarchy and the house of lords if it has a majority to do so?

A civil war was fought and won to make sure everybody knows it can. Charles I lost his head because of it.

Okay, do you have an a valid statute if it does not pass the lords?

Yep.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamen ... 1_and_1949

It it wants to, the Commons can abolish the House of Lords and the monarchy, and nobody can stop it. In reality, neither of those institutions would try to block such a move, because doing so would involve the very real risk of another civil war, which the Lords/monarchy would inevitably lose.