For NATO to work, Article 5 has to be believed. It must be taken seriously by everybody, inside and outside of NATO. Trump's actions have undermined this in a way that is impossible to fix. Once trust like that has gone, then it is gone.Potemkin Villager wrote: ↑20 Feb 2025, 19:12This fine bit of rhetorical, "profit of doom" hyperbole and fine turns of phrase is supported by precisely zero evidence!UndercoverElephant wrote: ↑20 Feb 2025, 12:42
But the hot air is already having massive consequences. NATO may already be damaged beyond repair. The fault line described above will not go away. Indeed, it isn't a new fault line -- it is basically the same fault line that first emerged during the American Civil War. Dixie is back, and she's mad as hell.
What are these "massive" consequences. (My alarm bells always ring when folk describe something as
massive rather than large or even significant.)
As for the use of "may" above you could indeed say that hell may freeze over tomorrow or indeed that NATO
may indeed be damaged to an extent from which it will quite probably recover!
Ukraine Watch...
Moderator: Peak Moderation
- UndercoverElephant
- Posts: 13626
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- Location: UK
Re: Ukraine Watch...
We must deal with reality or it will deal with us.
- UndercoverElephant
- Posts: 13626
- Joined: 10 Mar 2008, 00:00
- Location: UK
Re: Ukraine Watch...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ceqjn74gdwzo
What an extra-ordinary situation. How does this end when Trump finally realises he's not going to get most of the things he wants? This "deal" is for support already provided. He's demanding retrospective payment for what was freely given, and offering nothing going forwards. Why would anybody in their right mind accept this deal?
"Hey, I know what... I'm going to offer him a deal he cannot refuse!"
Literally, this is the direct equivalent of a mafia protection racket.
Give me your minerals or....or....erm, I already seem to have bargained away everything I had to offer you...Trump 'very frustrated' and Zelensky must strike minerals deal, says adviser
What an extra-ordinary situation. How does this end when Trump finally realises he's not going to get most of the things he wants? This "deal" is for support already provided. He's demanding retrospective payment for what was freely given, and offering nothing going forwards. Why would anybody in their right mind accept this deal?
"Hey, I know what... I'm going to offer him a deal he cannot refuse!"
Literally, this is the direct equivalent of a mafia protection racket.
We must deal with reality or it will deal with us.
Re: Ukraine Watch...
Rumours that Trump is planning to withdraw all US troops from bases in eastern Europe. Reported in a German newspaper.
On current form, this is 100% believable.
Also reported that Putin has offered Trump chances for major trade deals to develop new oil and gas fields, in regions where Russia does not have the technology or manpower to work in the arctic conditions. In exchange for ALL of his Russia's conditions for ceasefire in Ukraine (Full Ukrainian capitulation).
China is looking more and more like the best of a bad lot.
On current form, this is 100% believable.
Also reported that Putin has offered Trump chances for major trade deals to develop new oil and gas fields, in regions where Russia does not have the technology or manpower to work in the arctic conditions. In exchange for ALL of his Russia's conditions for ceasefire in Ukraine (Full Ukrainian capitulation).
China is looking more and more like the best of a bad lot.
- mr brightside
- Posts: 630
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- Location: On the fells
Re: Ukraine Watch...
I suspected there might be a deal to be done, see what pans out then.
Persistence of habitat, is the fundamental basis of persistence of a species.
- BritDownUnder
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- Joined: 21 Sep 2011, 12:02
- Location: Hunter Valley, NSW, Australia
Re: Ukraine Watch...
Yes they have not been to bargaining school. Telling Russia that the Trump administration does not want NATO membership for Ukraine before the start of negotiations was probably not a good opening gambit. Russia probably thinks it is Christmas. The lack of nous and almost childlike approach to getting their own way is telling.UndercoverElephant wrote: ↑20 Feb 2025, 22:15
Give me your minerals or....or....erm, I already seem to have bargained away everything I had to offer you...
On another note there was and article about the UK not having tactical nukes but the head of BAE saying that it was possible. The article went on to propose that the UK manufacture tactical nukes and possibly 'lend' them to other NATO members. I hope Australia gets some also. We can actually pay you for them.
Mind you the UK could not muster a single division of infantry and apparently there are more admirals than warships. The Royal Navy could not mount another Falklands mission these days with the same number of ships. The current ships my fare better than the 1980s era ships in terms of air defence perhaps.
G'Day cobber!