Ukraine Watch...

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Mark
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Re: Ukraine Watch...

Post by Mark »

Ralphw2 wrote: 20 Feb 2025, 10:39 I am not sure about the nuclear veto, and the US spying on political leaders referred primarily to the UK. All countries spy on each other, but the level of electronic snooping is scary. There is a lot of talk about Chinese backdoors in electronic devices in western infrastructure, but I cannot believe they have not been in US controlled devices for at least a decade, probably two. Edward Snowden blew that story open, but my direct knowledge supports everything he said.

The level of data sharing is so high and routine that any attempt to disengage would be a major red flag to the US in seconds. A large number of US spooks have high level access to UK institutions.
Yup, the good 'ol one-way special relationship.....
Wonder if Charles will be forced into hosting another US State Visit....?
Maybe he'll get chance to deliver the blow.... :D :D
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UndercoverElephant
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Re: Ukraine Watch...

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Ralphw2 wrote: 20 Feb 2025, 10:39 The level of data sharing is so high and routine that any attempt to disengage would be a major red flag to the US in seconds. A large number of US spooks have high level access to UK institutions.
We cannot disengage without them knowing we intend to disengage, for the same reason you can't divorce somebody without telling them. In fact there are similarities here to the situation of a marriage that is doomed but divorce seems unthinkable for countless reasons.

There is now a major faultline in the West, with the sane half of America and the rest of the Western world on one side, and the insane half of America on the other. If the whole of the rest of the West stands firm now, and collectively push back against Trump, then we can still win. Trump won't back down -- we know that now. He will double down and triple down instead. But we cannot follow a madman into the abyss because we're scared of him raising a red flag. We need to show we aren't scared of that.
Last edited by UndercoverElephant on 20 Feb 2025, 12:21, edited 1 time in total.
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clv101
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Re: Ukraine Watch...

Post by clv101 »

This is what collapse looks like. The day to day 'news' is noise. 50-100 year from now, yes, the west will be shattered. We don't know the precise mechanism or just how fast it'll be, but the collapse is inevitable. Maybe Trump's America will turn out to be a major step in the collapse in the next few years, but if not him, if not now, it'll be someone else, next decade.

"Trump appals world". Sure, the current trajectory is appalling to most, irrespective who actually sitting in the hot seat.
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Potemkin Villager
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Re: Ukraine Watch...

Post by Potemkin Villager »

Don't want to sound too optimistic but expect the unexpected!

He may stop getting dopamine hits soon if boring reality leads to
a lack of immediate gratification. It is quite possible for him then to do a shameless
about turn, blaming others as usual as he pirouettes, before charging off in some
other deranged direction. For this to work a very cool approach is needed to
starve him of the attention he craves.

I suspect his love affairs with Putin and Musk will not run for long and end
in uber bitter recriminations.
Overconfidence, not just expert overconfidence but general overconfidence,
is one of the most common illusions we experience. Stan Robinson
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mr brightside
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Re: Ukraine Watch...

Post by mr brightside »

UndercoverElephant wrote: 20 Feb 2025, 09:22 The West is being shattered. We cannot go along with this -- not just because it is morally depraved but because we cannot trust the Americans not to attack Europe.
So far it's just hot air from someone who's a bit of an attention seeker. Leaders worldwide need to just keep cool. No oxygen of publicity.
Persistence of habitat, is the fundamental basis of persistence of a species.
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UndercoverElephant
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Re: Ukraine Watch...

Post by UndercoverElephant »

mr brightside wrote: 20 Feb 2025, 12:30
UndercoverElephant wrote: 20 Feb 2025, 09:22 The West is being shattered. We cannot go along with this -- not just because it is morally depraved but because we cannot trust the Americans not to attack Europe.
So far it's just hot air from someone who's a bit of an attention seeker. Leaders worldwide need to just keep cool. No oxygen of publicity.

But the hot air is already having massive consequences. NATO may already be damaged beyond repair. The fault line described above will not go away. Indeed, it isn't a new fault line -- it is basically the same fault line that first emerged during the American Civil War. Dixie is back, and she's mad as hell.
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Re: Ukraine Watch...

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https://www.economist.com/leaders/2025/ ... -war-order
The PAST week has been the bleakest in Europe since the fall of the Iron Curtain. Ukraine is being sold out, Russia is being rehabilitated and, under Donald Trump, America can no longer be counted on to come to Europe’s aid in wartime. The implications for Europe’s security are grave, but they have yet to sink in to the continent’s leaders and people. The old world needs a crash course on how to wield hard power in a lawless era, or it will fall victim to the new world disorder.

Speaking in Munich last week, America’s vice-president, J.D. Vance, offered a taste of how the home of fine wines, classical architecture and welfare cheques faces humiliation, when he ridiculed Europe as decadent and undemocratic. Its leaders have been excluded from peace talks between the White House and the Kremlin, which began officially in Riyadh on February 18th. However, the unfolding crisis goes far beyond insults and diplomatic niceties.

Mr Trump appears ready to walk away from Ukraine which he falsely blames for the war. Calling its president, Volodymyr Zelensky, a “dictator”, Mr Trump warned him that he had “better move fast or he is not going to have a country left”. America may try to impose an unstable ceasefire on Ukraine with only weak security guarantees that limit its right to re-arm.

That is bad enough, but Europe’s worst nightmare is bigger than Ukraine. Mr Trump intends to rehabilitate Russia’s president, Vladimir Putin, ditching a long-standing policy to isolate him. Without any obvious geopolitical benefit to America, he is angling to restore diplomatic relations. He may soon be feted at a glitzy summit. Offering up concessions in Riyadh, Marco Rubio, the secretary of state, gushed about co-operation and “historic economic and investment opportunities”. (Trump Tower Red Square?)

Mr Trump’s shakedown of Europe and pandering to Russia have cast doubt on America’s commitment to defend NATO come what may. One fear is that American forces could be cut, or pulled back to leave eastern Europe exposed. The problem is not that Uncle Sam’s priorities lie in Asia. The problem is that if Europe comes under Russian attack and seeks American help, Mr Trump’s first and deepest instinct will be to ask what is in it for him. He is due to meet Britain’s prime minister and the French president next week. But don’t take that as a signal that this is just clever talk from a dealmaker: Mr Trump’s readiness to trade everything away is precisely the problem. NATO’s deterrence rests on the certainty that if one member is attacked the rest will come to its aid. Doubt is corrosive, it leaves Europe dangerously exposed.

Let us spell out the reality Europe faces. It is an indebted, ageing continent that is barely growing and cannot defend itself or project hard power. Global rules on trade, borders, defence and technology are being ripped up. If Russia invades one of the Baltic states, or uses disinformation and sabotage to destabilise eastern Europe, what precisely will Europe do?

So far the answer is to curl up in a defensive crouch. After the MAGA onslaught, a group of European leaders hastily met in Paris on February 17th but managed only to advertise their differences. Three years after Russia’s invasion Europe has not raised military spending nearly enough. It is trapped in an obsolete worldview of multilateral treaties and shared values.

Europe’s urgent task is to relearn how to acquire and wield power; it must be prepared to confront adversaries and sometimes friends, including America, which will still be there after Mr Trump. Instead of cowering, it needs an objective appraisal of the threat. Russia is a war machine with a vast arsenal of nuclear weapons, but also a medium-size economy that is declining. Europe also needs an equally objective appraisal of its own strengths: although it is slow-growing, Europe is still an economic and trade giant with great reserves of talent and knowledge. It needs to use those resources to reinvigorate growth, rearm and assert itself.

What does that mean? In the short term Europe needs a single envoy to talk to Ukraine, Russia and America. It should tighten its embargo on Russia even if America loosens sanctions. Europe should unilaterally exploit the €210bn ($220bn) of Russian cash frozen in European banks. That would pay for Ukraine to fight on or rearm as American funds dwindle.

In the medium term a huge defence mobilisation is needed. If Europe cannot rely on America, it must have its own heavy-lift aircraft, logistics, surveillance: the lot. Talks must start on how Britain and France can use their nuclear weapons to shield the continent. All this will cost a fortune. Defence spending will need to rise to the 4-5% of gdp that was normal during the cold war. Higher defence outlays, particularly if some are spent on American weapons, may persuade Mr Trump to stay in NATO, but the assumption now must be that American support is not guaranteed.
Paying for this rearmament will take a fiscal revolution. The new target will require extra spending of upwards of €300bn a year. Some of this must come from issuing more common and individual debt. In order to bear that, Europe will have to cut welfare: Angela Merkel, Germany’s former chancellor, used to say that Europe accounted for 7% of the world’s population, 25% of its GDP but 50% of its social spending. To raise growth, Europe must press ahead with obvious but endlessly delayed reforms, from unifying capital markets to deregulation.

The nightmare that Mr Putin and now Mr Trump have conjured up may ultimately force Europe to change how it organises itself. Its pedantic obsession with process and groupings, including the euro zone, the EU and many others, slows decision-making, omits key actors like Britain and gives weight to countries such as Hungary, which want to sabotage European defence, or Spain that is hesitant to rearm.

All this sounds outlandish. NATO has been the world’s most successful alliance: its disappearance is hard to imagine. But the old things have passed away; all things have become new. Europe needs to face up to that before it is too late.
The world is changing fast.
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Re: Ukraine Watch...

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I would certainly support a significant increase in UK defence spending. This will be expensive, though perhaps not as expensive as the headline figures suggest.
An extra billion pounds spent on defence, should not increase the total government spending by that much. That part of the money spent on servicemen's wages should reduce the spend on social security benefits.
That part of the extra money spent on equipment, should increase employment in defence related industries. We need more, and more modern conventional weapons such as tanks, guns, bombs, warships, and aircraft, and also need to spend more on newer technologies such as drones, and the means to defeat enemy drones.
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Re: Ukraine Watch...

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Still nothing from Farage, though today he has relinquished control of it as a business (so he can now be challenged as leader). He's got to come out for Zelensky, or Reform's support will halve.
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Re: Ukraine Watch...

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https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/ni ... r-AA1zrGu7
Reform leader Nigel Farage broke ranks with his friend Donald Trump as he insisted Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy is "not a dictator".

Speaking in Washington, Mr Farage also disagreed with Mr Trump's claim that Ukraine was to blame for the war. Mr Farage said: "Russia is to blame for the invasion. Of that there is no doubt."
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Re: Ukraine Watch...

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https://archive.ph/zVNuX
Trump's refusal to help NATO allies has left Britain no choice but to make plans to conscript says GENERAL RICHARD SHIRREFF
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Re: Ukraine Watch...

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I think folk are generally over playing the risk posed by Russian conventional forces. Their performance in Ukraine has been poor and that's against an opponent without air superiority. Sure, western Europe doesn't have much of a standing army these days - but there's nothing Russia can do to defeat Western European air power.

Even without the US, European air power alone could destroy the majority of Russian heavy equipment in Ukraine within a couple of weeks. Russia simply doesn't have another thousand+ modern tanks plus all the supporting infrastructure and manpower to threaten Europe - and even if they did, it would quickly be lost of air superiority.

Their hypersonic and ballistic missile are potent, but number in dozens, not thousands.

Russia's threats are hybrid, against infrastructure etc - a big problem, but not one the US can really protect Europe from even if they wanted to.

Frankly, I don't think the loss of US overwatch is as much of a direct risk to Europe as many are suggesting.
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Re: Ukraine Watch...

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UndercoverElephant wrote: 20 Feb 2025, 17:11 https://archive.ph/zVNuX
Trump's refusal to help NATO allies has left Britain no choice but to make plans to conscript says GENERAL RICHARD SHIRREFF
Hopefully we wont need conscription, but it is prudent, and not in my view shocking, to be prepared with plans for conscription, just in case.
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Re: Ukraine Watch...

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-The cruellest thing about Trump vs Zelensky? Trump’s right

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the ... mps-right/
There’s no doubt that, in our eagerness to champion the man in the military fatigues, we overlooked the more sordid aspects of his leadership. The Pandora papers showing his links to shady offshore bank accounts were forgotten about. His ties to deeply corrupt and double-dealing oligarchs, such as Ihor Kolomoisky, were brushed over. His ruthless suppression of Moscow-affiliated religious groups was dismissed as Kremlin ‘disinformation’.

Western politicians, and military-industrial types who have made a lot of money from the war effort, have always known, deep down, that in supporting Ukraine against Putin they have covered up awkward truths. What really frightens them now is not necessarily Trump’s recklessness. It’s that the murkier realities of the Ukraine-Russia relationship and the West’s involvement in the conflict going back to 2014 and before, may soon come to light.
Slava Cocaini!
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Re: Ukraine Watch...

Post by Potemkin Villager »

UndercoverElephant wrote: 20 Feb 2025, 12:42
But the hot air is already having massive consequences. NATO may already be damaged beyond repair. The fault line described above will not go away. Indeed, it isn't a new fault line -- it is basically the same fault line that first emerged during the American Civil War. Dixie is back, and she's mad as hell.
This fine bit of rhetorical, "profit of doom" hyperbole and fine turns of phrase is supported by precisely zero evidence!
What are these "massive" consequences. (My alarm bells always ring when folk describe something as
massive rather than large or even significant.)

As for the use of "may" above you could indeed say that hell may freeze over tomorrow or indeed that NATO
may indeed be damaged to an extent from which it will quite probably recover!
Overconfidence, not just expert overconfidence but general overconfidence,
is one of the most common illusions we experience. Stan Robinson
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