Brexit process

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 28 Aug 2019, 13:38

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Peston wrote: The bloodiness of this battle is not to be under-estimated. A No10 source told me: "If MPs pass a vote of no confidence next week, then we'll stay in No10, we won't recommend any alternative government,...

"we'll dissolve parliament and have an election between 1 and 5 November - and that means no time for legislation".
So we're back to Johnson saying that even if a VonC succeeds, he won't go. Major constitutional crisis territory.

Is it bollocks a "constitutional crisis".

A "constitutional crisis" occurs when the rules are not followed or they are contradicting themselves in some way, or one of the pillars of the establishment is not following the rules.

The only crisis that can be said to be even vaguely constitutional thus far is that brought about by Berkow and his "creative" interpretations of the parliamentary rules or that brought about by Remain MPs in their ever more desperate attempt to undo a democratic mandate by the people and a legislative instrument that they voted for in the first place.

As for what Johnson is doing right now, it is entirely within constitutional rules and arrangements and is entirely in keeping with the mandate given by both the people in the referendum and by parliament in the WA. Some people just don't like it, that's all

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 28 Aug 2019, 13:38

UndercoverElephant wrote:
....There has to be actual winners and losers.

No shit Sherlock

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 28 Aug 2019, 14:23

Little John wrote: A "constitutional crisis" occurs when the rules are not followed or they are contradicting themselves in some way, or one of the pillars of the establishment is not following the rules.

Right. And you think the Prime Minister refusing to leave Downing Street after losing a vote of no confidence doesn't qualify??

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 28 Aug 2019, 14:28

The inevitable petition to Parliament not to prorogue of Parliament has passed

273,000 as I type, several thousand signatures per minte

Not that Boris will worry about peoples opinions . He is a dictator in the making

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 28 Aug 2019, 15:33

She's never been someone that I felt I could like. Always staring eyes and a sulky pout. Since her interviews on Brexit I've been certain that she's not someone I could ever like. Temper tantrums, stamping of feet and throwing of rattles out of prams? Definitely her style.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 28 Aug 2019, 15:37

PS_RalphW wrote:The inevitable petition to Parliament not to prorogue of Parliament has passed

273,000 as I type, several thousand signatures per minte

Not that Boris will worry about peoples opinions . He is a dictator in the making

What about the 16+ million people who got off their arses, went out and voted to Leave?

Boris is less of a dictator than those MPs who know better than their "stupid" constituents who voted to leave. How much have they worried about people's opinions?

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 28 Aug 2019, 15:54

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Little John wrote: A "constitutional crisis" occurs when the rules are not followed or they are contradicting themselves in some way, or one of the pillars of the establishment is not following the rules.
Right. And you think the Prime Minister refusing to leave Downing Street after losing a vote of no confidence doesn't qualify??

Ask me again when and if it happens. Right now there is no constitutional crisis at least insofar as today's actions of Johnson are concerned.

However, just to play along with your hypothetical:

If Johnson loses a VoNC, it is entirely within his remit to then choose to hold an election on November 1st and remain in power until then. To do so is not unconstitutional. He has the parliamentary right to mark the date for the election at his own discretion within a two month period from my understanding. To be specific about this, under the terms of the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, there would be a 14 day period after the vote for MPs to cobble together an alternative government. If no alternative government could be formed a general election would be triggered and, as I said, the actual date of that election is at the discretion of the sitting prime minister within a two month framework. However, with time now running so tight, he is not going to need to set the date that far out to pass the October 31st deadline anyway.

As for a scenario where Johnson loses a VoNC and parliament achieves what it has failed to do thus far and comes up with some proposed cobbled together Remainer administration, Johnson is not bound by law to resign and let them govern. He merely has to call an election and remain in power until it occurs. Again, quite a few people are not going to like that. But, again, that is not a constitutional crisis.

To repeat, the only risk of a constitutional crisis occurring between now and October 31st is if it is engineered by Remainers in parliament by doing what I have already explained would comprise a constitutional crisis. By not following the rules or trying to make up new ones on the fly.

Mark · Post by **Mark** » 28 Aug 2019, 17:11

So, we have a new PM, elected by 0.13% of the population.
The new PM has hardly warmed his botty, before he prorogues Parliament, because all those pesky (elected) MPs are a block on his grand ambitions.
This decision is then ratified/endorsed by a constitutional monarch, elected by nobody.

News from some distant Banana Republic ?
No, welcome to the new 'improved' Blighty !!

What next, prorogue the Courts ?

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 28 Aug 2019, 17:36

Stop being such an hysterical Remainer.

Really, you should make the effort. It's not a good look

Mark · Post by **Mark** » 28 Aug 2019, 17:48

No hysteria, all facts.

As I've posted previously, I didn't vote remain.
If Brexit is/was about anything, surely it is/was about getting back 'control'.., no ?
ie, returning powers to Parliament.

This move totally flies in the face of that.
I suspect it won't end well for BoJo, but we'll have to wait and see....

ReserveGrowthRulz · Post by **ReserveGrowthRulz** » 28 Aug 2019, 18:13

I bet Trump would just love to be able to hit up some Royals to disband our Congress for a little bit, so he could do as he pleased without interference.

Man can those Royals make a one prime minister rule pretty convenient!! No wonder democratically minded Americans decided to shoot English folk until you fled back to your island, many moons ago!

stumuz1 · Post by **stumuz1** » 28 Aug 2019, 18:23

Mark wrote:S because all those pesky (elected) MPs are a block on his grand ambitions.
This decision is then ratified/endorsed by a constitutional monarch, elected by nobody.

News from some distant Banana Republic ?

So why did all those pesky (elected) MPs vote to invoke Art 50, which says we leave no deal, if a deal cannot be reached.

Can't have it both ways

Mark · Post by **Mark** » 28 Aug 2019, 18:56

stumuz1 wrote:
Mark wrote:S because all those pesky (elected) MPs are a block on his grand ambitions.
This decision is then ratified/endorsed by a constitutional monarch, elected by nobody.

News from some distant Banana Republic ?
So why did all those pesky (elected) MPs vote to invoke Art 50, which says we leave no deal, if a deal cannot be reached.

Can't have it both ways

As we all know, Brexit was ill-defined from Day1.
Most MPs voted for A50, but nearly every one of them had a slightly different vision of what it would actually mean.
Hence the 3+ years of (democratic) bickering...

We have a democratic process and we should stick with it....
If the current set of MPs can't find a solution, we should have a General Election.
Proroguing Parliament is just wrong.

stumuz1 · Post by **stumuz1** » 28 Aug 2019, 19:21

Mark wrote: Proroguing Parliament is just wrong.

Was it wrong in 2017?

boisdevie · Post by **boisdevie** » 28 Aug 2019, 19:41

"Proroguing Parliament is just wrong." - that is not an argument.