Tories show their true colours early

[biffvernon]

There's no answer to that stunning logic.

[2 As and a B]

Yeah, it's terrible isn't it? People actually standing on their own two feet. Whatever is the world coming to when skivers can't sponge off the backs of others?!

[caspian]

Critics of the coalition government criticise every proposed cut, but don't seem to provide any alternatives. What are your proposals on dealing with the deficit and the unemployed?

Don't generalise. There are plenty of us who oppose some of the cuts (which in typical Tory fashion are aimed primarily at the poorest in society) and have suggested alternatives. You may not like those alternatives, but they have been offered. As I've said previously, massive cuts in defence spending is one option (in particular, the immediate cancellation of the absurd and hugely costly Trident renewal). Another option is tax increases, especially for upper middle class types with far too much disposable income. Contrary to popular opinion, we are a lightly taxed country. The rich, especially, need to be hammered.

[MrG]

The whole point of the Tories is to shrink the size of government, forcing people to stand on their own two feet, or fall over if they haven't got any

To be honest I think that pretty much sums it up.

There must be countless people stuck in the same situation, who want to take a productive role in the world, but are prevented from doing it by a system that doesn't give them a chance.

Oh there are. That is my biggest problem with the current system.. and I'm not just talking about incapacity I (mostly) mean unemployment benefits. The problem is that it is too difficult to move between work and benefit and also that the way the system is set up your frequently better off not moving into work. The situation Ludwig describes is exactly what I'm talking about.

Its more than that though it's not just about the rewards for moving into work being great enough its about risks and rewards. Its about 'better the devil you know'. If you move into work and find that yourself in a nightmare of a job with an exploitative bully for a boss you'll have to wait literaly months before you can sign on again and if you've just been on the dole your not going to have any savings to tide you over.

Its very easy (if your a daily mail reading hate monger type of person) to demonise people for 'sponging' but put yourself in the situation of making that decision. If your only experience of work is taking that sort of shit for minimum wage and your currently signing on and your looking at either carrying on as things are or taking a risk on a minimum wage job as a cleaner with hours that only just put you into the category of not being able to claim any more. After housing expenses you'll end up with slightly less money than by carrying on claiming and that's before you factor in transport to work. You know that if it goes tits up you'll have no support whatsoever for the next 36 weeks. Add in that maybe you've got children (yes one of those single mothers we hear so much about). Now what do you do.. make up some fake jobs you 'applied for' and stick to the devil you know!

Now what they were promising was to actually reform that system for the better for those sorts of reasons. Let people keep more of the money from benefit when they start to work. That could be a good thing. What I suspect we will get is more of what Biff is talking about but we shall see.

I do believe that a large part of the reason we have a 'benefits culture' in this country (to a certain extent we do that isn't just the daily mail) is that plenty of people who would like to work are being trapped by a system which just isn't responsive to peoples change in circumstances so they stick with the safe option and who can blame them.

[clv101]

I looked it up a couple of years ago, expect it's still true. The UK is the lowest taxed country in Europe apart from Ireland and the former Soviet states.

Of course I don't think we should replace Trident, but it isn't really that expensive in the grand scheme of things. Top end estimates from the likes of CND and Greenpeace are around £100bn, for replacement and running over 25 years, so that's around 10% of current defence budget or less than 5% of health.

Government say total replacement cost £15-20bn, Greenpeace say £34bn.

It's strange that people talk of the total cost of Trident over its lifetime, when all other government spending is talked able on an annual basis. Distorts the comparison.

[Lord Beria3]

Thanks Caspian, at least your honest. That is one solution to the deficit.

Maybe Ed Miliband will go down that path.

[biffvernon]

And of course cuts mean cuts in employment, since most of the money, even when spent on Trident, actually goes on wages.

So it takes some nifty footwork to make cuts AND reduce unemployment at the same time. Unfortunately, Tories have feet of clay.

[caspian]

And of course cuts mean cuts in employment, since most of the money, even when spent on Trident, actually goes on wages.

I find it difficult to feel any sympathy on that front Biff. The arms manufacturers, dealing in death as they do, deserve to lose their jobs.

[frank_begbie]

The whole point of the Tories is to shrink the size of government, forcing people to stand on their own two feet, or fall over if they haven't got any

To be honest I think that pretty much sums it up.

There must be countless people stuck in the same situation, who want to take a productive role in the world, but are prevented from doing it by a system that doesn't give them a chance.

Oh there are. That is my biggest problem with the current system.. and I'm not just talking about incapacity I (mostly) mean unemployment benefits. The problem is that it is too difficult to move between work and benefit and also that the way the system is set up your frequently better off not moving into work. The situation Ludwig describes is exactly what I'm talking about.

Its more than that though it's not just about the rewards for moving into work being great enough its about risks and rewards. Its about 'better the devil you know'. If you move into work and find that yourself in a nightmare of a job with an exploitative bully for a boss you'll have to wait literaly months before you can sign on again and if you've just been on the dole your not going to have any savings to tide you over.

Its very easy (if your a daily mail reading hate monger type of person) to demonise people for 'sponging' but put yourself in the situation of making that decision. If your only experience of work is taking that sort of shit for minimum wage and your currently signing on and your looking at either carrying on as things are or taking a risk on a minimum wage job as a cleaner with hours that only just put you into the category of not being able to claim any more. After housing expenses you'll end up with slightly less money than by carrying on claiming and that's before you factor in transport to work. You know that if it goes tits up you'll have no support whatsoever for the next 36 weeks. Add in that maybe you've got children (yes one of those single mothers we hear so much about). Now what do you do.. make up some fake jobs you 'applied for' and stick to the devil you know!

Now what they were promising was to actually reform that system for the better for those sorts of reasons. Let people keep more of the money from benefit when they start to work. That could be a good thing. What I suspect we will get is more of what Biff is talking about but we shall see.

I do believe that a large part of the reason we have a 'benefits culture' in this country (to a certain extent we do that isn't just the daily mail) is that plenty of people who would like to work are being trapped by a system which just isn't responsive to peoples change in circumstances so they stick with the safe option and who can blame them.

Very good post.

[emordnilap]

The UK is the lowest taxed country in Europe apart from Ireland and the former Soviet states.

A lot has changed here in the last two years.

Something they've brought in is the 'levy'. Basically it means they can get everyone to give up part of their income and not call it tax, so they can maintain the facade of not raising income tax.

It's payable on all incomes above €18K at 2-6%; there's a pension levy too.

VAT here has been higher than the UK's for a long time, though you're about to catch up.

I suspect the low taxation you're talking about is corporation tax, which is ridiculously low, 10-12.5%.

Otherwise, virtually everything is taxed. Cheque books, ATM cards, credit cards, for instance, all carry a government levy. Alcohol is one of the most heavily taxed in Europe (which doesn't seem to put people off...).

There's now a 'carbon levy' on fuel; they would have been far better off abolishing motor tax and putting up fuel duty to make it revenue neutral, because in the end they would have saved huge amounts of money running the motor tax system.

All this is on top of one of the most expensive countries in the world to live in.

You can still have thingy for free, though that might change, you never know.

It would be interesting to see up-to-date comparisons which include all the stealth taxes.

[emordnilap]

And of course cuts mean cuts in employment, since most of the money, even when spent on Trident, actually goes on wages.

Is Trident useful employment though, biff? The humungous pile of moolah spent on 'defence' would be far better off making the UK less dependent upon outside influence.

[Totally_Baffled]

I voted Tory I admit it( ), but I disagree with these particular cuts (if true), partularly in the absence (as mentioned by others) a focus on how to deal with tax evasion first (which could save up to 15 billion).

I don't understand the ideological thinking behind reducing the benefits of those who can genuinly not work, unless those benefits were overbloated, but this would need to be proved - before making any cuts were made.

The challenge does however remain - what would posters on here cut?

Bear in mind the following first though please:

1) The gap between tax revenues and government spending is £155 billion
2) Cutting trident will only save £4bn per year
3) Cutting all tax evasion will only save £15 billion
4) Cutting all defence spending will only save £30 billion

That leaves £106 billion to find.

Some other figures to give some context on the taxation side:

1) 1p on income tax only raises 4 billion
2) 2.5% on VAT only raises £9 billion

We are in a mess!

Good luck!

[emordnilap]

Tax all money (except foreign aid) that leaves the country at 120%.

No, make that 150%.

[JohnB]

I find it difficult to feel any sympathy on that front Biff. The arms manufacturers, dealing in death as they do, deserve to lose their jobs.

Arms manufacturers and their suppliers employ a lot of ordinary people, who just go to work to earn money, and take whatever job they happen to be offered. It's very difficult to turn down a job because you have ethical objections to what the company does, if you have to pay a mortgage and feed your family.

My first job was with a ball bearing manufacturer. A good proportion of our production was for the aerospace industry, but not all of it, with British Aerospace and a Yugoslavian company being major customers. I knew most of the applications were military, but it was over 30 years ago, and I didn't really think of any of the issues involved in this, like most people. It was just interesting technology, my job was to record manufacturing costs, and it was the best job offer I got when I left school.

Maybe the directors and senior management deserve to lose their jobs, but not the majority of the employees.

[clv101]

I suspect the low taxation you're talking about is corporation tax, which is ridiculously low, 10-12.5%.

I'm talking about the total tax burden on the economy, the UK is/was something like 46%, Scandinava a bit over 50%, rest of Europe just under 50% except Ireland and the new Eastern members who were around the 35-40% rate.