EU immigration row / time to get out

Tarrel · Post by **Tarrel** » 04 Dec 2013, 17:52

emordnilap wrote:Anyone heard of the Shetland bus?

Cancelled.

Tarrel · Post by **Tarrel** » 04 Dec 2013, 17:56

If Scotland joined the Schengen agreement - surely funds would found to subsidise a couple of direct ferries per day, to Oslo, to Amsterdam. There's gotta be an EU grant for that kind of thing.

I would hope so. It was only about three years ago that one could take the bus from my place up to Scrabster on the north coast, ferry to Orkney, cross Orkney by bus, ferry to Shetland, then ferry to Bergen, and on to Iceland!

Happy days.

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 04 Dec 2013, 18:01

Yep, lets keep travellin', stuff the planet.

Tarrel · Post by **Tarrel** » 04 Dec 2013, 18:07

woodburner wrote:Yep, lets keep travellin', stuff the planet.

Fair comment, but at the moment the alternative is to fly.

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 04 Dec 2013, 18:40

Nooooo, there's Shetland ponies, or Clydesdales for the heavy stuff.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 04 Dec 2013, 18:59

clv101 wrote:
In all seriousness - I'm coming around to the idea that an independent Scotland might actually be good news for Scotland (after a tricky decade+ long transitional period) and bad news for the remaining UK.

If I lived in Scotland I would vote for independence. It's just going to be tough for us English having to be ruled by the English. Will it mean a permanent Tory majority?

AndySir · Post by **AndySir** » 04 Dec 2013, 19:28

I'm still undecided, although I have been convinced by the Yes campaign that everything will stay much the same. Not sure if I can be bothered voting to be ruled by the bankers in Edinburgh rather than the bankers in London.

Still, there is the chance that we could kick the SNP out after the referendum and work our way towards a nice Scandinavian style democracy. Just not, I think, a very good chance.

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 04 Dec 2013, 19:53

From what I have heard from people in Scotland, the current first minister is totally untrustworthy. He has been banging on about independence for ever. It's his political drum. snce the English are controlled by a significant number of Sottish MPs, I don't understand why the YES group has such a problem the other way round. I suppose if you voted yes, you can have Donald Trump all to yourselves.

Tarrel · Post by **Tarrel** » 04 Dec 2013, 22:31

For what it's worth, I'll be voting "Yes". When we moved 18 month ago, we took a decision to move to "Scotland", not to "that part of the UK known as Scotland". We adopted a mindset of emigrating, recognising that we were moving to a place with a different culture and different values, certainly compared to the South East we were leaving behind.

Maybe I'm viewing this through rose-tinted glasses, but I do perceive a nation that is hard-wired to value social equality and inclusion more so than in the south. I know this appears in stark contrast to the current reality of much of Scotland's land being in the hands of a few very wealthy people, but there are signs of this changing with land reform, which I suspect will accelerate after independence.

From a practical point of view, if we look to a more localised, less fossil fuel-dependent near-future, then I think an independent Scotland has the potential to thrive with its favourable climatic conditions and high levels of natural resources per capita. The only fly in the ointment is security, and how to fend off the hoards that are after what Scotland has.

I think the problem with the current debate is that it is framed (quite naturally) through the lens of "business as usual". As soon as one applies the factors that many on PS believe are coming into play, the question becomes a no-brainer IMO. So, questions such as; "will the oil last?" and "can we hold our own against the big economic power blocks of the world?" become less important compared to; "can we feed ourselves?", "can we be self-sufficient in energy?" and "how will our part of the world cope with the climate upheaval that is rolling out as we speak".

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 04 Dec 2013, 22:46

stevecook172001 wrote:He's not the only one who's sick of the ......... (Edited - Ken).
contempt shown by some on here for the poor of this country.

If we are now at the stage where the editing of posts is being done to those who point out the disgraceful hypocrisy of others, then it's time for me to leave.

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 04 Dec 2013, 23:08

woodburner wrote:Nooooo, there's Shetland ponies, or Clydesdales for the heavy stuff.

Good point but they won't get us all the way from York to St Petersburg (a surface journey that was being seriously contemplated here at Chateau Renewable 'til those ferries packed up!).

Tarrel · Post by **Tarrel** » 04 Dec 2013, 23:16

RenewableCandy wrote:
woodburner wrote:Nooooo, there's Shetland ponies, or Clydesdales for the heavy stuff.
Good point but they won't get us all the way from York to St Petersburg (a surface journey that was being seriously contemplated here at Chateau Renewable 'til those ferries packed up!).

York-harwich, Harwich-esbjerg ferry, Esbjerg-Stockholm, Stockholm-Helsinki ferry, Helsinki-St Petersburg ferry?

Or:
York-London-Stockholm by train, then cruise ferry to St P
York-London-warsaw-Vilnius-St P by train
York-London-moscow-St P by train

www.seat61.com

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 04 Dec 2013, 23:43

Now I come to think of it our original plan involved Newcastle, so we didn't actually set off from Scotland after all

Also, the best link I know of between Helsinki and St P is by train (though I guess you could do a ferry instead).

Anyway...has anyone seen the Beeb article about what on earth they're going to do with the Union Jack if Scotland leaves? They go into great long detail and then point out that since the flag came into being as a result of the union of the Crowns (not the Parlies or the constitutions), and the Crowns are apparently not splitting up, there's no need to change it!

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 04 Dec 2013, 23:55

There's a jolly nice ferry from Hull to Rotterdam every night.

Tarrel · Post by **Tarrel** » 05 Dec 2013, 00:23

RenewableCandy wrote:Now I come to think of it our original plan involved Newcastle, so we didn't actually set off from Scotland after all

Also, the best link I know of between Helsinki and St P is by train (though I guess you could do a ferry instead).

Anyway...has anyone seen the Beeb article about what on earth they're going to do with the Union Jack if Scotland leaves? They go into great long detail and then point out that since the flag came into being as a result of the union of the Crowns (not the Parlies or the constitutions), and the Crowns are apparently not splitting up, there's no need to change it!

Yes, some weird variations. My personal nightmare was the one with the yellow and black background. It looked like something that might be used in a futuristic dystopian film in which the UK had become a fascist state.

Oh...wait..