EU immigration row / time to get out

[biffvernon]

immigrants add to our GNP and are generally good for the economy (if that is a good thing).

I fear that somebody didn't notice the bit in brackets.

Of course I don't think that an increase in GNP is a good thing. I'm all for degrowth, but it's by no means clear that immigration causes degrowth, rather the evidence is in the opposite direction.

[jonny2mad]

I would agree with you about the personal insults.

But I would like to point out traitor doesn’t actually mean that you agree with your government and betray it.

If you have a UK passport and for example you hate the UK as it now is and want a theocracy and go around beheading British soldiers in the street. Well you may feel justified in doing that but you are betraying the UK as it is.

Saying but the UK is just a kuffir state and I only follow Islam won’t really change that in my mind.

Neither will I am a citizen of the world, or a member of the communist international.

What you could do if you feel like that is renounce citizenship and leave. Most people won’t do that and through the years I have talked to loads of people who want to destroy the UK that’s one of the reasons I'm sure we are doomed.

[UndercoverElephant]

immigrants add to our GNP and are generally good for the economy (if that is a good thing).

I fear that somebody didn't notice the bit in brackets.

Of course I don't think that an increase in GNP is a good thing.

Then why did you post what you posted?

You know perfectly well that increasing GNP/GDP is a bad thing, and yet you quite happily offered it up in defence of your position on immigration. I repeat: you are ......... (Edited - Ken).

I'm all for degrowth, but it's by no means clear that immigration causes degrowth, rather the evidence is in the opposite direction.

Now you are just posting incomprehensible gibberish. If you want degrowth then you should be opposed to hundreds of thousands of immigrants coming here. Stop tying yourself in knots trying to defend your indefensible position.

[jonny2mad]

You do have a tendency to personally attribute everything. It's a general point, a reference to a quote by William Wallace when he was accused of treason "How can I be a traitor when England is foreign to me?". It makes the point that one's fellow's are not necessarily those who share a geographical boundary determined by a government. Membership of this group is not of my choosing.

if we had a fascist fifth column were they traitors they were hung as traitors but they could say the same thing as you

[UndercoverElephant]

You, ......... (Edited - Ken).
.

Is there any way we can debate this subject without the personal insults?

OK, I will try to tone it down a bit. However, I will call out hypocrisy every time I see it in one of BiffVernon's posts.

I think a lot of this debate rests on the nation state, and whether folk see the UK as the principle unit of importance or not. Personally - I think the fact that the UK is a lot richer than Bulgaria, for example, is a bad thing and would prefer to live in a more equal Europe.

There certainly is a debate about where the borders should be and what the political unit should be. However, this makes no difference to what BiffVernon is posting, because he advocates no borders at all and a global political unit. Given the current state of the world, this idea is pure insanity, and deserves to be treated as such. It is idealistic to the point where it has lost all contact with reality, and I don't understand why that sort of idealism has any place in the discussions we have on this forum. If it has nothing to do with reality, then it has nothing to do with Peak Oil.

I would love to see a more equal Europe, but only if it has a non-bloated, accountable government. I'm afraid the EU has not proven itself competent. It regularly produces policies that are themselves insane (e.g. fishery policies, common agricultural policy), and has become an enormous, pointless gravy-train. It is ineffective and a monumental waste of money.

Also, if we are going to talk about a united Europe, we have to look at what is going on in the Eurozone, and why that single currency is causing unsolvable political problems. I believe the truth is that the people in the richer countries of Europe do not actually want to pay the price of creating a European super-state. They like the idea only until they see what it actually means for their own lives, then they change their minds.

Just as the UK has managed to come together, just as the states of Prussia came together to from Germany - I'd like to see the states of Europe come together and tear down the huge inequality that currently exists across the region.

I don't like the nationalistic, protectionist arguments. I understand them and the likely short term benefits - but in the longer term I expect following this course will lead to a worse overall outcome.

I wish I could agree with you. I mean that, honestly. I wish I could realistically believe in an integrated European state that actually "worked".

[biffvernon]

Then why did you post what you posted?

Because I think it's true.

Some folk say immigrants make the UK poorer so we should stop immigration.
I say that's a weak argument because immigration tends to make the UK richer.

But that is not the reason why I support open borders.

The economic case is really quite a separate issue. I don't support infinite economic growth on a finite planet, and I think degrowth of a pretty rapid order is needed if we are to avoid catastrophic climate change. I also hope to see a more even distribution of wealth around Europe and the rest of the world. That means that the UK will have to become poorer, as measured by its rate of fossil energy and other resource use. I'm happy to take my share of that hit, and though my resource use is already well under the average for the UK I won't mind reducing it further.

The borders argument, however, is about freedom not about economics. It stands whatever way the economic wind blows.

[biffvernon]

This is a good one to sign for all us EU citizens:
http://www.endecocide.eu/

[UndercoverElephant]

Then why did you post what you posted?

Because I think it's true.

Some folk say immigrants make the UK poorer so we should stop immigration.
I say that's a weak argument because immigration tends to make the UK richer.

But that is not the reason why I support open borders.

The economic case is really quite a separate issue. I don't support infinite economic growth on a finite planet, and I think degrowth of a pretty rapid order is needed if we are to avoid catastrophic climate change. I also hope to see a more even distribution of wealth around Europe and the rest of the world. That means that the UK will have to become poorer, as measured by its rate of fossil energy and other resource use. I'm happy to take my share of that hit, and though my resource use is already well under the average for the UK I won't mind reducing it further.

The borders argument, however, is about freedom not about economics. It stands whatever way the economic wind blows.

I have already made clear what I think of what you are posting here.

The truth is this: you are happy to advocate this sort of "freedom" right up until the moment it starts impacting on your own freedom, at which point you change your tune very quickly indeed.

I'm sorry, but this is deserved, again: you are a hypocrite of the worst imaginable kind, and your posts are so nauseating I cannot continue posting on this board.

Goodbye.

[AndySir]

I would love to see a more equal Europe, but only if it has a non-bloated, accountable government. I'm afraid the EU has not proven itself competent. It regularly produces policies that are themselves insane (e.g. fishery policies, common agricultural policy), and has become an enormous, pointless gravy-train. It is ineffective and a monumental waste of money.

Not sure if there is much point in responding to this now that UE has flounced, but for what it's worth...

I agree that it is fairly bloated and there has been plenty of corruption, but I don't think the solution to that is to scorch the Earth upon which the commission sits (Note: I don't believe your have suggested burning any commissions to the ground.) For it's many faults it's given us the working time directive, a fantastic research system, we're working on the tokamak and the European supergrid to deal with our energy issues, there's the whole free movement thing and it's one of the strongest forces for reducing carbon emissions here in the UK.

That seems a lot to discard with the bathwater (Note: I do not believe you have suggested the abandonment or slinging of infants).

[woodburner]

I'm sorry, but this is deserved, again: you are a hypocrite of the worst imaginable kind, and your posts are so nauseating I cannot continue posting on this board.

Goodbye.

You have thrown a tantrum before, and stormed off, only to return with the same unbalanced aggressive attitude. Please take a (longer this time) break so you are fully recovered before you return.

[RenewableCandy]

For it(aaarrrgh)'s many faults it's given us the working time directive, a fantastic research system, we're working on the tokamak and the European supergrid to deal with our energy issues, there's the whole free movement thing and it's one of the strongest forces for reducing carbon emissions here in the UK.

That seems a lot to discard with the bathwater (Note: I do not believe you have suggested the abandonment or slinging of infants).

Good points all, to which I would add the line of one moderate Irish Nationalist politician in 1990 or so, that it has also proven to be one of the world's most successful Peace Treaties. Can remember the guy's face but can't remember his name for the life of me, sorry.

[Little John]

He's not the only one who's sick of the ......... (Edited - Ken).
contempt shown by some on here for the poor of this country.

[jonny2mad]

These millions you’re going to help will need jobs which they will take off the current inhabitants ideally I feel they should take those jobs off you and biff, They will need to live somewhere again it would be nice if you and biff gave up your homes to them

They can compete with me for jobs and housing in a free market. For someone who so strongly advocates social Darwinism you seem to need an awful lot of protection from competition, J2M.

humans are social animals tribal its part of the way we evolve as a species in competition with other humans who also have tribal ties .

We compete in groups for resources or have done through most of human history, the less strong groups lose territory, and eventually die out or get enslaved

Altruism refers to behavior by an individual that increases the fitness of another individual while decreasing the fitness of the actor. Altruism appears most obviously in kin relationships but may also be evident amongst wider social groups

So you may get a warrior prepared to risk death for his tribe, normally he doesnt risk death for a tribe his tribe is in competition with .

soldier ants dont normally get killed to help wasps who are in competition with ants .

Anyway we live in a society obsessed with helping other peoples at the expense of our own. where the leadership of the main political partys hate their own people .

If you have a society like that its basically suicidal, a animal that thinks like would be considered mentally ill, certainly not a animal with healthy traits that are going to continue very long .

There is no conflict between my social darwinism and being tribal they are both part of the same thing .

I find it kinda funny that lots of for example anarcho primitivists talk about tribalism or a return to community, but dont really get what it means .

They seem to think that if we return to hunter gathers we will be in some sort of hippy eden, well we might be on some levels but tribes were in pretty constant conflict throughout the world .

Think of the level of terror it takes to make a tribal people build housing up the side of a cliff face in a desert, and have to climb up and down a cliff several times a day. They did that because of fear of other tribes .

I imagine the we are the world tribe in that situation who sited their camp on the valley floor didnt last very long

[biffvernon]

The truth is this: you are happy to advocate this sort of "freedom" right up until the moment it starts impacting on your own freedom, at which point you change your tune very quickly indeed.

This is the bit that I don't get. I want people to have the freedom to migrate. If that involves me being poorer as part of the greater equalisation of global wealth, then as I've often said I would welcome it. Where's the tune change?

[biffvernon]

He's not the only one who's sick of the ......... (Edited - Ken) contempt shown by some on here for the poor of this country.

I would actually be quite interested to know what I've said, precisely, that fits into the ......... (Edited - Ken) contempt for the poor.

I do have contempt for some of the lords and dukes on that list of big landowners we saw, but that can't be what you mean.