EU immigration row / time to get out

[kenneal - lagger]

............, I would gladly see nationalised and distributed to the deserving poor.

Like they did in Zimbabwe so that they now import food instead of exporting?

[UndercoverElephant]

why are you still making provocative posts? Or do you still not understand why what you are posting is provocative?

Provocative? I thought that was the whole point of internet forums.

I only know two Romanians. They came here on a visitors' visa, stayed for ages working amazingly hard for lots of people who valued them enough to pay them enough cash to buy land and build a house in Romania. The nicest people one could wish for and have deservedly earned many English friends. Everyone a winner. Fortunately such folk will be able to do it legally next year.

Let's hope the Ukraine will be able to follow and will not remain shackled to their Russian oppressors.

Sorry Biff but Jonny2Mad is correct. What you are is a TRAITOR. You may mean well, but what you are actually doing is trying to sell the poor people in your own country down the river, in the full knowledge that you're going to be alright, Jack, while simultaneously trying to claim the moral high ground. I think your comments on this topic are absolutely disgraceful, and that you should be deeply ashamed of yourself.

I might also add that this sort of treachery is music to J2M's ears. It is exactly the sort of thing that will drive ordinary people into the arms of UKIP and the BNP.

[AndySir]

How can I be a traitor when my government is foreign to me?

[UndercoverElephant]

How can I be a traitor when my government is foreign to me?

I wasn't accusing you of being a traitor. You have not specifically stated you'd extend an open invitation to Ukrainians and every other nationality on the planet to come and destroy any hope of a sustainable UK and condemn the poorest people in this country to utter misery.

And you can absolutely be a traitor regardless of whether or not you approve of your government. The treachery in this case is treachery against one's fellow countrymen, not the Queen or the government.

[AndySir]

You do have a tendency to personally attribute everything. It's a general point, a reference to a quote by William Wallace when he was accused of treason "How can I be a traitor when England is foreign to me?". It makes the point that one's fellow's are not necessarily those who share a geographical boundary determined by a government. Membership of this group is not of my choosing.

[biffvernon]

............, I would gladly see nationalised and distributed to the deserving poor.

Like they did in Zimbabwe so that they now import food instead of exporting?

LOL No, Ken, not like that at all! I was thinking more of establishing productive crofts on grouse moors.

[UndercoverElephant]

You do have a tendency to personally attribute everything. It's a general point, a reference to a quote by William Wallace when he was accused of treason "How can I be a traitor when England is foreign to me?". It makes the point that one's fellow's are not necessarily those who share a geographical boundary determined by a government. Membership of this group is not of my choosing.

How am I supposed to know you are refering to a quote by William Wallace?

I'm really not sure why you have posted this, or why you think it is relevant to the debate. Quite frankly, if Biff thinks his "fellows" are Ukrainians rather than British people then he can F--k off to the Ukraine, can't he.

This debate is absurd. I don't know why I'm even bothering to continue with it, given that I'm being forced by the disgraceful nature of BiffVernon's self-congratulatory, hypocritical treachery into agreeing with Jonny2Mad. I have better things I could be doing, such as poking out my own eyeballs.

[emordnilap]

net immigration

Without wading through this thread, does anyone have accurate figures for net migration?

No one has accurate figures but the official figures are here:

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migration ... ation.html

Thanks for that. I was thinking of the EU really.

[biffvernon]

A traitor eh? Two points come to mind. Firstly, it has been shown by cleverer economists than me, that immigrants add to our GNP and are generally good for the economy (if that is a good thing). Certainly my experience with my Romanian friends left both them and the households they worked for better off. So that's the macro- and micro-economic reason why I'm not a traitor in welcoming east European immigration.
Secondly, as AndySir, points out, the current UK government is certainly foreign to me. I feel much greater empathy with the European Commission (though they are far from perfect). My allegiance is to humanity first; nationalism comes very low down the priority list.

[biffvernon]

Oh, did I mention that my next door neighbour is Polish, an elderly gentleman who came here to serve in the Royal Air Force. Rather romantically, he recently married a Ukrainian lady.

[UndercoverElephant]

A traitor eh? Two points come to mind. Firstly, it has been shown by cleverer economists than me...

You, .........................(Edited - Ken). You know perfectly well that those "clever economists" can show any bollocks they want to, because what they do is driven entirely by what their political masters tell them to do. You don't normally take any notice of mainstream economics, because you know it is a load of old crap, but you're quite happy to take their work at face value when it happens to support your up-your-own-arse, holier-than-thou position on immigration? More hypocrisy.

that immigrants add to our GNP

Adds to GNP? What is this? Are you preaching the gospel of economic growth, BiffVernon? Hypocrite.

Secondly, as AndySir, points out, the current UK government is certainly foreign to me.

I wouldn't look to AndySir and his strawmen for support. Jonny2Mad was the person who originally accused you (implicitly) of being a traitor, and he was refering to you stabbing the poor people in your own country in the back, not challenging the government.

My allegiance is to humanity first

Your first allegiance is to your own ego. The real reason you are posting this nonsense is to feed your own hideously-bloated sense of moral superiority.

[extractorfan]

that immigrants add to our GNP

Adds to GNP? What is this? Are you preaching the gospel of economic growth, BiffVernon? Hypocrite.

This is why I stopped talking about the actual topic of this thread. It is probably true immigrants have a net benefit to economic growth, that's what I was trying to say, but I know economic growth will stop at some point but it was leading to that sort of comment.

In my opinion we should use the remaining era of economic growth to build infrastructure which will make life better in the coming century, better transport and communication. Immigrants can help with that by not just doing it cheaply but by doing it quickly and skillfully.

I don't believe in ever lasting economic growth because I'm not stupid but I believe in playing the cards we have as cleverly as possible, yes to protect us.

I know the terms we and us have certain connotations but they are not meant, I just don't know how else to word it.

[Tarrel]

............, I would gladly see nationalised and distributed to the deserving poor.

Like they did in Zimbabwe so that they now import food instead of exporting?

LOL No, Ken, not like that at all! I was thinking more of establishing productive crofts on grouse moors.

Zimbabwe had vast tracts of farmland under the ownership and management of white farmers, creating one of the most efficient food production systems in Africa. Whatever the why's and wherefore's of the colonial debate, this system produced a lot of food. When the land was redistributed, it ended up in the hands of people with neither the knowledge or the money to continue that system. It's just such a pity that the transition wasn't handled differently.

With regard to crofts, there are already examples emerging of land redistribution in the Highlands, without it being done at gunpoint. Community buy-outs of estate land in areas such as Assynt and Knoydart are democratising the management of the land. It remains to be seen how the use of the land develops out of these buy-outs. We spent some time on the Glencanisp estate earler this year and the impression I got was that it was "business as usual" (i.e. relying heavily on stalking, fishing, etc, as a main income-generator). Having said that, their management plan does point to a move away from this model and towards creating more crofts among other initiatives. http://download1349.mediafire.com/r8oot ... F+plan.pdf

One of Crofting's main challenges remains as persuading land owners to "Croft" their land, thus expanding the amount under agricultural stewardship. To be honest, looking at it through a land-owner's eyes, there's not a lot of benefit to be gained, but a lot to lose the way the current system is set up.

[clv101]

You, .......(Edited - Ken).

Is there any way we can debate this subject without the personal insults?

I think a lot of this debate rests on the nation state, and whether folk see the UK as the principle unit of importance or not. Personally - I think the fact that the UK is a lot richer than Bulgaria, for example, is a bad thing and would prefer to live in a more equal Europe.

I totally accept that means the average Brit will be worse off. That's no bad thing in my mind. Just as I would like the average investment banker in the UK to be worse off, I'd like the average Brit in the UK to be worse off. Rigidly entrenching the nation state as some kind of macro gated community can't end well. It may mitigate or delay the loss for a few years, but I believe the narrative for this century is one of levelling.

Just as the UK has managed to come together, just as the states of Prussia came together to from Germany - I'd like to see the states of Europe come together and tear down the huge inequality that currently exists across the region.

I don't like the nationalistic, protectionist arguments. I understand them and the likely short term benefits - but in the longer term I expect following this course will lead to a worse overall outcome.

[AndySir]

You, .........(Edited - Ken).

Is there any way we can debate this subject without the personal insults?

I think a lot of this debate rests on the nation state, and whether folk see the UK as the principle unit of importance or not. Personally - I think the fact that the UK is a lot richer than Bulgaria, for example, is a bad thing and would prefer to live in a more equal Europe.

I totally accept that means the average Brit will be worse off. That's no bad thing in my mind. Just as I would like the average investment banker in the UK to be worse off, I'd like the average Brit in the UK to be worse off. Rigidly entrenching the nation state as some kind of macro gated community can't end well. It may mitigate or delay the loss for a few years, but I believe the narrative for this century is one of levelling.

Just as the UK has managed to come together, just as the states of Prussia came together to from Germany - I'd like to see the states of Europe come together and tear down the huge inequality that currently exists across the region.

I don't like the nationalistic, protectionist arguments. I understand them and the likely short term benefits - but in the longer term I expect following this course will lead to a worse overall outcome.

What I wish I'd said. My opinion put far more cleanly and powerfully than I am capable of myself.