Jihad Watch

[kenneal - lagger]

Well I did read your post. Being optimistic I wondered whether you were apologising for your comment, "We have been down that route before because of people like you, Biff Vernon, and thousands of young girls have been completely unnecessarily put through hell."

That breaks all records for the most offensive post I've ever had directed at me.

I don't doubt that you find these crimes as abhorrent as the rest of us but they were perpetrated by supposedly peaceful Muslims whose culture and religion treats non Muslims as second class or worse. Their Holy Scripture encourages the killing of non believers and people who leave Islam or don't believe in the correct version of Islam. Women whose behaviour brings shame on the family have offended against the Quran and so become liable for all sorts of grisly treatment. Men don't seem to have the same restraints put on them.

Your recent insinuations of criminal racial hatred against those of us who see these crimes and, not just one murder, many, many murders and relate it to the religion that condones and even encourages these attacks in its written scriptures I find as offensive as you do my accusation against people of your thought patterns. It was precisely the accusations of racism, similar to yours in this thread, over the years which prevented the earlier investigation of the Rotherham crimes and others of a similar nature all over the country. You seem quite happy for that mindset to be carried forward.

It is fear of accusations of racism or Islamophobia which is stopping any publicity on the widespread attacks by the mainstream Muslim community on Ahmediyya Muslims across the country and indeed the whole world. Asad Shah might be the first to be known to have been murdered for being an Ahmediyya Moslem in this country but he is not the first to have been attacked. Where is the condemnation from the mainstream Muslim community asking for good old British values of toleration?

How can that be prompted by my suggesting that a murderer is a psychopath?

It is not your suggestion that a murderer is a psychopath that is the problem but the fact that you deny the fact that his religion might have anything to do with the reason for his attack.

Who suggested sweeping anything under the carpet? Certainly not me. The implication is just plain wrong so why do it?

No you didn't. You just insinuated that anyone looking for reasons beyond what you consider acceptable is criminally racist.

Or was it that you don't like my notion that because somebody murders then a generalisation about 1.6 billion people is justified? Do you really think that? If that isn't racial or religious hatred I don't know what is.

I'll answer this as I think you meant it to read (not justified). It is not just one murder it is a series of murders and a civil war between two branches of the Islam which, paraphrased, says that "thou shalt not kill thy "Good brother" but killing the bad is to be encouraged". It is the systematic rape of thousands of young non Muslim girls in this country, the enslavement and rape of thousands of non Muslim women and girls elsewhere and the systematic murder of non Muslims in the name of Allah which leads me to question the religion of 1.6 billion people. I am not questioning the people but the religion which they uphold.

Or were you offended by my linking to an episode of Radio 4's Thought for the Day? I guess the message of peace, love and understanding has often been met with hostility, but that doesn't make it wrong.

I'm certainly not offended by your linking to anything and I certainly don't reject that message. I don't doubt your adherence to peace and love but I, and many other people here, query your understanding. If you opened your mind and looked at the religion which you refuse to criticise you might actually understand where we are coming from. You show no willingness to even want to understand anything about that of which you are so uncritical.

Now retract your comment as I asked you to earlier in a PM, or that's the end of our discourse.

For the above reasons and those which I posted in my PM to you I will not retract what I think is a very valid comment. I at least agreed to disagree. I am willing to accept that you have strongly held opinions on the matter and must have good reasons, which you have not disclosed, for holding them. I have openly argued all the reasons why I hold my opinions but you seem to be rejecting my right to hold those opinions. That is what extremism is all about; not allowing anyone to hold opinions which do not uphold the values of those in power. It is Fascism and it is Communism and it is also Islam, but not, from what I have read, Ahmediyya Islam.

I would also say that I don't doubt that there are a great majority of Muslims who don't agree with the more extreme elements of their religion but are afraid to publicly announce the fact as they fear just what happened to Asad Shah might then happen to them.

[biffvernon]

I don't doubt that you find these crimes as abhorrent as the rest of us

I got that far and stopped reading. I suggest you look up the origins of FGM, a couple of millennia at least before Islam was invented. End of.

[AutomaticEarth]

I have discussed with Adam2, the other active Mod on this forum, about what to do about this thread and we have decided to leave the content as is but to move both this thread and the Immigrant Watch thread to the Off Topic forum where hopefully it will not deter others from partaking in the very important discussions that we have elsewhere on this board.

As I have said elsewhere I consider that that these topics have a great deal to do with the sustainability that we are all interested in but some people seem unable to grasp that fact of to admit to it. So move these topics we must.

I think this is a fair course of action. It does at least deter anyone from being 'scared off' who might be thinking of joining to discuss items related to PO/CC mitigation and who may be looking for advice, plenty of which is available on various threads across this forum.

[UndercoverElephant]

I don't doubt that you find these crimes as abhorrent as the rest of us

I got that far and stopped reading. I suggest you look up the origins of FGM, a couple of millennia at least before Islam was invented. End of.

Yes, FGM predates Islam and exists in African cultures which aren't Islamic.

However, it was brought to the UK by muslims, almost all British examples involve the Islamic community, and it is indeed linked to a general lack of women's rights in Islamic culture.

[3rdRock]

https://www.justgiving.com/borderssingle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH725NRfbF8

This track is about the divisions that we draw between one another and the world in which we live, both real and imaginary. The one reinforces the other. By convincing ourselves of the intrinsic "otherness" of our foreign neighbours, we strengthen our own justifications for enforcing more and more aggressively the "real" borders that we've created. Borders which we use to fence in our wealth and keep at bay the "third world", whose labour and resources we are so happy to exploit.


We put up the borders that board us into our boxes / Oh can’t you see now how the locksmith lies? / Stoking up the national pride / While they’re keeping all the wealth inside (repeat)/ We put up the borders / To keep out the needy man / Borders / To protect the greedy man / Borders / To keep all the living men dead, dead, dead / We put up the borders / That separate us from our fellow human beings / Emphasizing difference instead of seeing / The reflections that connect us / Connections that perfect us / The similarities of factors that affect us in our / Everyday existence on this planet that we all live upon / Six billion expressions of the same essential one / The same essential force / That fundamental source / Of energy that manifests itself in oh so many different forms. And it’s / All alright and all ok and that’s just fine you know but / Me I know that sometimes you have to draw the lines just to make / Sense of what you see / Of this reality / But understand the lines you draw only exist within your mind, it’s the / Illusion of separation, whoa oh oh / Separating nation from nation, the / Justification for social segregation / So deep in our delusions like a world of mental patients, now it’s / Time to tear down the asylum walls and let the patients out, it’s / Time to let the refugees inside and share the wealth about, it’s / Time that we all understand / We are just one land / Just one people, people it’s time to make a stand and say / No woh woh woh / I won’t go woh woh woh / I won’t go quietly no no no / I won’t go quietly no no no / And if I do, well you should know / You can’t trap my soul / Trap my soul / Behind these / borders that board us...// We put up the borders / To keep out the needy man...// Borders / That elevate the status of those with resources / Never wonder from what plundering the source is misappropriated / Excavated from the living earth / Minerals like outlaw criminals flee from their place of birth and / Make the journey northwards / Destined for our waters where they’re / Welcomed in with open arms by the governments and corporates / Container ships slip over border points with ease / When they’re carrying the commodities that service our greed, but meanwhile / Deep down in the belly of the ship, a secret human cargo waits / No food or water’s passed a man’s lips for the last eleven days / Kept alive by memories of families they’ve left behind / They ride the waves towards the promise of a better life / Some flee from tyranny / Some simply seek a way / To lift themselves up from the poverty that stalks them every day / Some run away from never ending civil war / For every single one of them / This is the last resort and they say...

[Lord Beria3]

Biff - it would be good if you can respond to my post.

[kenneal - lagger]

You've challenged his belief system so he won't answer, Beria.

[biffvernon]

Biff - it would be good if you can respond to my post.

Soory LB, missed you post in my rapid skim-read of this thread.

Biff - I respect your view but I don't agree with them.

Thank-you for the politeness; it would be a dull world if we agreed about everything.

My understanding of your case, correct me if I am wrong, is that there is nothing specifically within the theology of Islam that encourages or contributes to extremism, intolerance and fundamentalism (or Islam is no different from any other religion - all are equally absurd in your opinion) any more than any other religion.

I'm not sure I'd put it so strongly - all religions are absurd but some may be more absurd than others. I am not a Koranic scholar - I've never read the book and have little inclination to. There appear to be plenty of verses that can be interpreted to mean bad stuff, as with the Old Testament. I don't know if one has more of that than the other but this isn't a competition. If someone wrote bad stuff hundreds or thousands of years ago then it should be discarded to the dustbin of history. Why do we speak of Ancient Greek Mythology and Norse legends but Judeo/Christian/Islamic religion? Where there is good stuff we should celebrate it - Thought For the Day on Radio 4 this morning was by a Muslim who spoke, in the context of the Panama Papers, of Islam's opposition to usury, a practice once condemned by Christians but now used to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, quite counter to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

The evidence from the 1.6 billion Muslims who live peaceful lives suggests that whatever there is within the theology of Islam that encourages or contributes to extremism, intolerance and fundamentalism, it is ignored by many Muslims. But don't put words in my mouth by saying I support a bonkers religion.

I have stated before that I disagree with that case. There are theologically problematic issues within the Koranic texts which can justify violence, extremism and the promotion of violent jihad against non-believers. It is also the case that other parts of the Islamic foundation texts call for tolerance, peace and "peaceful" jihad - and thankfully the majority of Muslims live the "peaceful'" interpretation of Islam.

Yes, that seems exactly correct.

if you look at the New Testament, Christ never calls for violence, Christian "jihad" or hatred towards non-Christians. It is true that Christian states throughout history have done horrific things in the name of Christianity, but there was never any theological justification for such acts of violence or aggression. It is true that Islam can reform but to do that, it needs to reform, like a cancerous cell, the bits within the Koranic texts that could justify violence and extremism.

Correct. We are agreed.

My second understanding of discussions on Islam are that you don't think that there is a cultural element, inherent within the attitudes within modern Islamic communities, that make it more likely and acceptable to condone violence against woman, young girls etc

For you, the fact that there seems to be a big problem of child abuse of vulnerable young girls from men within the Muslim communities is just a coincidence and nothing more. You do not accept that there is a cultural factor at work here - e.g. a community which at times treats girls who don't behave "modestly" as nothing more than prostitutes to be abused and treated with contempt. This is directly linked to the conservative sexual mores promoted by Islamic clerics and community elders.

Indeed, for you, trying to link individual cases of child abuse to religion, is a form of religious hatred.

Correct me if I am wrong with my assumptions about your thinking.

Oh no! You have me completely wrong there. I'm sorry you've read anything of the sort into my posts. Clearly the attitude to women prevalent across much of the Islamic world is utterly reprehensible. But what we can't say is that all Muslim men treat women badly and that all non-muslim men treat women well! FGM was common a thousand years before Mohammed and geographically was common over those parts of Africa that later became Islamic. The Chinese bound the feet of girls and today we see few women in the Peoples' Assembly of the Chinese government, and English women only got the vote within living memory. The place of women in the hierarchies of many branches of Christianity is still secondary to men. There is a tradition of wife burning in Hinduism. But there's no doubt that the way some Muslim men treat women today is abominable. Tangentially, the Judeo/Christian practice of male circumcision is nothing other than child abuse.

So yes, you are quite wrong in your assumptions on this aspect of my thinking. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify.

[biffvernon]

Jihad Watch from another viewpoint:

I am in the strange position of knowing that I am on the ‘Kill List’. I know this because I have been told, and I know because I have been targeted for death over and over again. Four times missiles have been fired at me. I am extraordinarily fortunate to be alive.

I don’t want to end up a “Bugsplat” – the ugly word that is used for what remains of a human being after being blown up by a Hellfire missile fired from a Predator drone. More importantly, I don’t want my family to become victims, or even to live with the droning engines overhead, knowing that at any moment they could be vaporized.

I am in England this week because I decided that if Westerners wanted to kill me without bothering to come to speak with me first, perhaps I should come to speak to them instead. I’ll tell my story so that you can judge for yourselves whether I am the kind of person you want to be murdered.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/i-a ... 80141.html

[UndercoverElephant]

Jihad Watch from another viewpoint:

I am in the strange position of knowing that I am on the ‘Kill List’. I know this because I have been told, and I know because I have been targeted for death over and over again. Four times missiles have been fired at me. I am extraordinarily fortunate to be alive.

I don’t want to end up a “Bugsplat” – the ugly word that is used for what remains of a human being after being blown up by a Hellfire missile fired from a Predator drone. More importantly, I don’t want my family to become victims, or even to live with the droning engines overhead, knowing that at any moment they could be vaporized.

I am in England this week because I decided that if Westerners wanted to kill me without bothering to come to speak with me first, perhaps I should come to speak to them instead. I’ll tell my story so that you can judge for yourselves whether I am the kind of person you want to be murdered.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/i-a ... 80141.html

How do you, I, or anybody else who is reading this know whether or not this person is telling the truth?

He says he is going to tell his story so we can judge him, but we are not in any position to judge him, even after listening to his story.

For all we know, the organisation he belongs to is exactly what US intelligence claims it to be: a front for the extremists. In which case, it is he who is responsible for the deaths of over 50 other people.

[biffvernon]

The man who brought jihad to Britain, did so thanks to MI6

https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence ... .1jx4nei1i

[UndercoverElephant]

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04 ... mal-abuse/

Three halal slaughtermen and their bosses have appeared in court charged with the “systematic” abuse of animals killed in accordance with Islamic law.

Kabeer Hussein, Kazam Hussein, Artur Lewandowski, Robert Woodward and William Woodward sat alongside each other yesterday at Northallerton Magistrates’ Court in North Yorkshire.

The case was based on “significant and systemic” breaches of animal welfare rules, alleged Howard Shaw for the prosecution, the Northern Echo reports.

Animal activists looked on from the public gallery in horror as the extensive list of cruelty charges were read out. The men worked at the Bowood Yorkshire Lamb slaughterhouse, which was secretly filmed by the animal rights group Animal Aid last year.

In the footage, workers are seen hacking and sawing at animals’ throats, kicking them in the face and jumping on their necks, and even laughing hysterically as a sheep bled to death with spectacles drawn around it’s eyes.

F**king worthless, evil muslim scum.

[kenneal - lagger]

When done properly Halal and Jewish slaughter methods are pretty quick as is stunning. When done improperly all methods can be horrendous. There are probably as many Europeans breaking the rules as there are Moslems.

The meat from those animals wouldn't be Halal as they were damaged before being killed. All Moslems would be as horrified as we are over this case.

I'm not making a case for Ritual slaughter, just saying that this is just typical of a certain type of brutalised people of all religions.

[kenneal - lagger]

I've just watched the Channel 4 program, What British Muslims Really Think, introduced by Trevor Phillips, late of the Equalities Commission. It had horrendous implications and bears out J2M's predictions to an extent.

They carried out a survey of British Muslims, available here, and a control survey of non Muslims asking a variety of questions and it was found that a significant minority of British Muslims are against many of the principles which we hold dear. There is also a significant proportion of them who want to set up separate enclaves governed by Sharia Law.

Trevor Philips said that we can't do nothing if we are to keep our way of life. We must find a way of including the children of Muslims in the British way of life even if that means banning of more than 50% Muslims in schools. This has been proven to increase assimilation and integration.

[UndercoverElephant]

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016 ... ch-glasgow

Ahmadi Muslims in Scotland have launched an anti-extremism campaign following the death of the Glasgow shopkeeper Asad Shah, despite the failure of other prominent Muslims to attend the event.

Representatives of the Glasgow Central Mosque and the Muslim Council of Scotland were invited to attend the launch alongside other faith groups, but the Guardian understands that both sent their apologies at the last minute.

Shah, who lived in the multicultural Shawlands area of Glasgow, was fatally stabbed outside his newsagents on 24 March.

Shah was an Ahmadi, a member of a minority sect of Islam that faces persecution and violence in countries such as Pakistan and is treated with open hostility by many orthodox Muslims in the UK because it differs from their belief that Muhammad is the final prophet sent to guide humankind.

The man charged with Shah’s murder is also a Muslim, and recently released a statement through his lawyer saying the killing was justified because Shah had “disrespected” Islam.

As part of the United Against Extremism campaign, posters sponsored by the Ahmadi community will be displayed on buses in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee for two weeks.

The event’s organiser Ahmed Owusu-Konadu said: “We are undertaking this campaign as part of our stand on the rejection of all forms of extremism and as a message of solidarity with all who have been its victims, including Asad Shah, and others in Paris, Turkey, Brussels, Pakistan, Nigeria.”

Abdul Abid, president of the Ahmadiyya community in Scotland, admitted he was disappointed that other Muslim leaders had not attended the launch. Representatives of Glasgow’s Sikh and Jewish communities and the Church of Scotland’s inter-faith group were all present, alongside local politicians, representatives of Police Scotland and Glasgow’s lord provost.

The Guardian has reported on how Ahmadis across the UK face shunning and discrimination by Muslims of Shia and Sunni faiths.

Abid said: “We are not asking them to stand united in faith with us but to stand united against extremism. If Glasgow Central Mosque is against extremism, they should be here today.”