Central banks fight credit crisis

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 13 Mar 2008, 11:13

Off topic, has anyone watched Il Postino?

Great film, if you've seen it you'll know why I was reminded of it...

21st_century_caveman · Post by **21st_century_caveman** » 13 Mar 2008, 12:41

RenewableCandy wrote: I watched the film (that marvellous cartoon about debt on Youtube) and sort of understood it but I still can't quite believe it...it just seems so barking (sorry for yet more doggist comments!)

I know what you mean, i've watched it numerous times and i have to keep watching it periodically otherwise my understanding of the whole thing seems to seep away. Even straight after watching it part of my brain just doesn't accept it because its so insane, its as if my brain is saying "Error, Error, Divide by Zero, Does not compute".

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 13 Mar 2008, 12:44

RenewableCandy wrote:I watched the film (that marvellous cartoon about debt on Youtube) and sort of understood it but I still can't quite believe it...it just seems so barking (sorry for yet more doggist comments!)

Do you have a link for it, please?

21st_century_caveman · Post by **21st_century_caveman** » 13 Mar 2008, 12:51

Google video seems to have it as one piece rather than split up:

Money as Debt

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 13 Mar 2008, 12:55

21st_century_caveman wrote:
RenewableCandy wrote: I watched the film (that marvellous cartoon about debt on Youtube) and sort of understood it but I still can't quite believe it...it just seems so barking (sorry for yet more doggist comments!)
I know what you mean, i've watched it numerous times and i have to keep watching it periodically otherwise my understanding of the whole thing seems to seep away. Even straight after watching it part of my brain just doesn't accept it because its so insane, its as if my brain is saying "Error, Error, Divide by Zero, Does not compute".

Perhaps it's not just thee and me, perhaps the kind of weird mechanism described does everybody's head in because it's so illogical...perhaps we need a Poll...

SunnyJim · Post by **SunnyJim** » 13 Mar 2008, 13:52

I agree. The situation, when you add it up, is worse than the brain can take in....

The 'value' and 'absoluteness' of money is buried so deeply in our psyche that to learn the system that creates it is such a house of cards is deeply traumtic.

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 13 Mar 2008, 15:24

What is a money auction? here it is in black and white:

Beeb News wrote:The money on offer does not exist before the auction. It's created for the purpose of lending it out to banks and electronically transfers to their accounts. When the banks pay it back it is usually worked into the bank's accounts but can just disappear again.

I mean, how weird is that??

syberberg · Post by **syberberg** » 13 Mar 2008, 17:07

RenewableCandy wrote:What is a money auction? here it is in black and white:
Beeb News wrote:The money on offer does not exist before the auction. It's created for the purpose of lending it out to banks and electronically transfers to their accounts. When the banks pay it back it is usually worked into the bank's accounts but can just disappear again.
I mean, how weird is that??

So it's not so much Deus Ex Machina, but Deus Pecuniam Ex Machina?

Mitch · Post by **Mitch** » 13 Mar 2008, 22:04

Just watched "Money as Debt" - Am now awake - VERY awake and very scared.......

Ta for the link - but will I ever sleep again?

Moadib · Post by **Moadib** » 13 Mar 2008, 23:32

RenewableCandy wrote:I watched the film (that marvellous cartoon about debt on Youtube) and sort of understood it but I still can't quite believe it...it just seems so barking (sorry for yet more doggist comments!)

Don't worry! It doesn't just seem barking, it is barking!

But having watched the film, I bet a lot of the quotations about money begin to make a lot of sense. For instance...

John Kenneth Galbraith, ?The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled.

Extract from a letter written by Rothschild Bros of London to a New York firm of bankers on 25 June 1863: "The few who can understand the System (Cheque Money and Credits) will either be so interested in its profits, or so dependent on its favours, that there will be no opposition from that class. While on the other hand, the great body of people mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical (hostile, hurtful) to their interests.

In an abstract form it's quite elegant - those who understand benefit greatly from the system - everyone else pays. The problem is that the monetary system by it's nature compels growth. Market structures and competition compel company growth - the entire system compels growth. So although it may be a neat trick by the money-men, the system is what is driving us to resource exhaustion, water depletion, peak oil - you name it, whichever link of the chain breaks first.

The below is worth a read also ;

http://www.relfe.com/plus_5_.html

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 14 Mar 2008, 10:13

I love the way that house-of-cards is made out of "For Sale" signs...

Blue Peter · Post by **Blue Peter** » 14 Mar 2008, 10:37

Mitch wrote:Just watched "Money as Debt" - Am now awake - VERY awake and very scared.......

Ta for the link - but will I ever sleep again?

I should say that I haven't watched "money as debt", but my understanding is that it is not totally correct, so you do need to be slightly careful,

Peter.

Aurora · Post by **Aurora** » 14 Mar 2008, 11:28

emordnilap wrote:Off topic, has anyone watched Il Postino?

Great film, if you've seen it you'll know why I was reminded of it...

An excellent movie and a great soundtrack.

RogerCO · Post by **RogerCO** » 14 Mar 2008, 11:33

Blue Peter wrote:I should say that I haven't watched "money as debt", but my understanding is that it is not totally correct, so you do need to be slightly careful,Peter.

Could you clarify your understanding or provide link to the possible issues - I have a public screening of it organised next week and it would be as well to be primed on any deficiencies in it for the discussion afterwards.
Ta.

Blue Peter · Post by **Blue Peter** » 14 Mar 2008, 11:55

RogerCO wrote:
Blue Peter wrote:I should say that I haven't watched "money as debt", but my understanding is that it is not totally correct, so you do need to be slightly careful,Peter.
Could you clarify your understanding or provide link to the possible issues - I have a public screening of it organised next week and it would be as well to be primed on any deficiencies in it for the discussion afterwards.
Ta.

Damn! I was hoping that no one would ask that.

Having read the various discussions on banking and the creation of money on housepricecrash.co.uk, there have been various comments from people who do seem to know what they are talking about (they are bankers of one sort or another - no sniggering at the back there, Andy. Actually, reminds me of when I went to a s/w trade thing with some senior bankers, but that's another story...) that the money as debt video has some good things but is also misleading in various parts. Unfortunately, I don't have the equipment to view the video myself (and what do I know?) and searching for it on HPC would bring up far too many results.

My guess is that it is misleading about the actual creation of money. People seem to come away thinking that fractional reserve banking (factor 10) means that if someone deposits ?10 at a bank, the bank can lend out ?100, whilst it actually means that the bank can lend out ?9. We have referred to this on this site:

http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/vie ... t=trillion

That's probably not very helpful, but it's the best I can do, sorry,

Peter.