Greece Watch...

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 14 Jul 2015, 07:44

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/j ... in-bailout

Osborne seeks to block use of British-backed fund in bailout

Government opposes use of stability mechanism known as EFSM, to which UK Treasury contributes, as part of overall Athens rescue package.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 14 Jul 2015, 08:16

I don't actually think the bailouts should happen. These bailout are not of Greece and its people. They never were. They are bailouts of European banks. Primarily German and French banks. Around 80% of Greek bailout money has gone to these two banking systems alone, in fact. Any further bailouts are there to merely serve the same purpose and I, for one, am not interested in bailing out German banks any more than I am interested in bailing out British ones.

Lets the f***ing banks fall and if this means that the entire Greek banking system goes bust, than that's what needs to happen and, if that causes half of the rest of Europe's banking system to go bust, then that's what needs to happen.

I am more than happy for UK taxpayer money to help Greek people. But, that is not what will happen, by design, with these "bailouts".

raspberry-blower · Post by **raspberry-blower** » 14 Jul 2015, 08:16

John Pilger: The Problem of Greece is not only a tragedy: It is a Lie

The true nature of Syriza has been seldom examined and explained. To the foreign media it is no more than “leftist” or “far left” or “hardline” – the usual misleading spray. Some of Syriza’s international supporters have reached, at times, levels of cheer leading reminiscent of the rise of Barack Obama. Few have asked: Who are these “radicals”? What do they believe in?

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 14 Jul 2015, 08:36

Little John wrote:I am more than happy for UK taxpayer money to help Greek people. But, that is not what will happen, by design, with these "bailouts".

Bank Bailouts are processes whereby the state part nationalises the banks in order to stop them going bust. If they go bust then people cannot get money from cashpoints or receive or pay things electonrically. Importantly everything stops in terms of credit balances whilst the situation is worked out.

I accept to some extent that can be overcome, but it is a material issue.

In the UK the state should make a marginal cash profit on these transactions.

In previous crises the banks have been allowed to go bust with the consequence suffering of their customers.

One of the other demands of the EZ is to bring Greece's rules on sorting out bank crises in line with other European Countries. That is to ensure that preferred debt (tier 1 and tier 2) is bailed in before requiring government funding.

I note that Little John has not responded to my points about Ukraine. I presume he accepts his post about comparing Ukraine to Greece was wrong.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 14 Jul 2015, 08:37

I think Pilger is ultimately right about Syriza, though I think he miscasts Varoufakis a bit. That is to say, his chatecterisation of him as being someone unwilling to go all the way down the socialist rabbit hole is largely correct. Though Pilger suggests this is by choice rather than, I think, by self perceived, real-politic constraints. Indeed, Varoufakis has indicated in the last few days that he had a plan to seize the central bank and other significant measures in defiance of the Troika following the referendum, but was voted down, which is largely why he walked.

Nevertheless, in terms of an analysis of the abject failure of Syriza to adhere to the democratic will of their people, Pilger is correct. But, I am optimistic, over the longer term. This is just one more staging post in a direction of travel that is becoming clearer both here in Europe and further afield. What we have to watch out for, though, is that, faced with an unstoppable political reset, the PTB will engineer that reset to the far right since they can still do business with he far right. The far let. The REAL far left, that is, will never do business with such elites. That is why they will be resisted by all and any means, even to the point of manufacturing wars and all the rest.

The left has to unite and support one another across national boundaries cos these fuckers are working across such boundaries, that's for sure,

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 14 Jul 2015, 08:39

Little John wrote:The left has to unite and support one another across national boundaries cos these fuckers are working across such boundaries, that's for sure,

Mathematics is in fact universal so you will have to try to change the Universe to deal with this.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 14 Jul 2015, 08:40

johnhemming2 wrote:
Little John wrote:I am more than happy for UK taxpayer money to help Greek people. But, that is not what will happen, by design, with these "bailouts".
Bank Bailouts are processes whereby the state part nationalises the banks in order to stop them going bust. If they go bust then people cannot get money from cashpoints or receive or pay things electonrically. Importantly everything stops in terms of credit balances whilst the situation is worked out.

I accept to some extent that can be overcome, but it is a material issue.

In the UK the state should make a marginal cash profit on these transactions.

In previous crises the banks have been allowed to go bust with the consequence suffering of their customers.

One of the other demands of the EZ is to bring Greece's rules on sorting out bank crises in line with other European Countries. That is to ensure that preferred debt (tier 1 and tier 2) is bailed in before requiring government funding.

I note that Little John has not responded to my points about Ukraine. I presume he accepts his post about comparing Ukraine to Greece was wrong.

No, I am just working on wasting less energy and time on people like you, Your own posts damn you and your views well enough as it is.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 14 Jul 2015, 08:46

I fail to understand why my concerns that the poorer citizens in Greece be able to buy food and drink require you to be abusive towards me.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 14 Jul 2015, 09:22

Will Europe accept Tsipras' surrender?

http://socialistworker.org/2015/07/13/w ... -surrender

....During the boom years, Germany could use the eurozone to boost exports and emerge as the overwhelming economic power on the continent. Despite the Great Recession and the debt crisis--not only in Greece, but in several other European countries--Germany is determined to preserve that setup, even at the risk of Grexit. If Greece does leave the eurozone, Germany is determined that it does so with the maximum possible economic damage, so as to discipline other countries that might seek relief from debt burdens.

By intensifying the Greek economic crisis, Germany and its allies hope to destroy SYRIZA as a challenger in Greece and as a pole of attraction for other anti-austerity forces across Europe. That's why Tsipras, even after he made an offer of surrender, was subjected to what one EU official described as "extensive mental waterboarding" to extract guarantees that Greece would implement further austerity.

If the creditors believed that they could extract more from SYRIZA, it is because the party "has managed to squander the powerful injection of political capital from the referendum in record time," wrote Stathis Kouvelakis, a member of the party's Central Committee and supporter of the Left Platform.

There are many twists and turns still to come. It is even possible that the European authorities won't accept anything other than unconditional surrender from Greece--and that the Greek parliament could reject such measures.

But it's already certain that Tsipras and the SYRIZA leadership have compounded Greece's economic and political crisis. A new direction is urgently needed. A statement by SYRIZA's Left Platform, issued in response to Tsipras' proposal last week, points to some key tasks, including nationalizing the banks under social control, a reversal of all austerity measures and an exit from the eurozone:

It is now clear that our government has been essentially forced to exit the euro because of the EU's final refusal to accept reasonable proposals on debt relief, the lifting of austerity, and the rescue the Greek economy and society, as demonstrated by the new ultimatum sent after the referendum.
Tsipras has made it clear that he is unwilling to pursue such a course. It will be up to the left of SYRIZA to mobilize the party's base and push for confrontation with the European powers and the Greek capitalist class.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 14 Jul 2015, 14:46

In a nutshell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH5Yv7iwfhs#t=177

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 14 Jul 2015, 16:14

John Pilger, as usual, sums it all up very concisely.

For a small country such as Greece, the euro is a colonial currency: a tether to a capitalist ideology so extreme that even the Pope pronounces it "intolerable" and "the dung of the devil". The euro is to Greece what the US dollar is to remote territories in the Pacific, whose poverty and servility is guaranteed by their dependency.

'Even' the pope.

raspberry-blower · Post by **raspberry-blower** » 14 Jul 2015, 18:28

emordnilap wrote:John Pilger, as usual, sums it all up very concisely.

For a small country such as Greece, the euro is a colonial currency: a tether to a capitalist ideology so extreme that even the Pope pronounces it "intolerable" and "the dung of the devil". The euro is to Greece what the US dollar is to remote territories in the Pacific, whose poverty and servility is guaranteed by their dependency.
'Even' the pope.

Er, Emo, I posted that article a little earlier in the thread..

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 14 Jul 2015, 18:42

http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... ebt-relief

IMF report says Greece will need much more debt relief than bailout offers

Fund’s involvement in bailout now in doubt as leaked debt sustainability report warns bank closures and capital controls have hugely damaged Greek economy.

raspberry-blower · Post by **raspberry-blower** » 14 Jul 2015, 21:46

Don't know if this has been posted before but here goes:

Ambrose Evans-Pritchard: Greece is being treated like a hostile occupied state

Ambrose Evans-Pritchard wrote: But however you dress it up, the fact remains that the ECB is by its acts dictating a political settlement, and serving as the enforcement arm of the creditors rather than upholding EU treaty law.

It took a stand that further destabilised the financial system of an EMU member state that was already in grave trouble, and arguably did so in breach of its primary treaty duty to uphold financial stability. It is a watershed moment.

What we have all seen with great clarity is that the EMU creditor powers can subjugate an unruly state – provided it is small - by shutting down its banking system. We have seen too that a small country has no defences whatsoever. This is monetary power run amok

It is self-evident that the ECB et al have been operating above their supposed mandate. Who are they accountable to? How can we remove them if they are not operating in the best interests of all of its citizens? (Which it has quite probably never done, ever)

More from AEP: Greek deal poisons Europe as backlash mounts against neo colonial servitude

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 15 Jul 2015, 05:50

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 89042.html

Leaked IMF report heaps fresh pressure on creditors to grant massive relief as part of latest bailout deal