Migrant watch (merged topic)

fuzzy · Post by **fuzzy** » 15 Mar 2016, 13:48

I think thats true and lynch mobs are a bad outcome when society is conflicted. But Biff appears to be trying to keep the argument bubbling.

AutomaticEarth · Post by **AutomaticEarth** » 15 Mar 2016, 15:00

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/03 ... -detained/

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 15 Mar 2016, 17:10

Automaton wrote: Biff is absolutely not going to listen to anything anyone says if he doesn't already agree with it, no matter how sensible or logical, so he's effectively just winding you up.

You're all better than this; just ignore whatever he writes. It's working for me!

Actually, I just make a determined effort to never read any of the posts from the three people here who have been personally abusive. If they are continuing then I hope it amuses others.

careful_eugene · Post by **careful_eugene** » 15 Mar 2016, 17:12

Does anyone have any ideas of what we could reasonably do with these people? I assume we couldn't just ship them back to Turkey as there is no agreement between Turkey and the EU at the moment and the Turks could just refuse to accept them. Does the EU have a legal or moral obligation to provide food and shelter?

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 15 Mar 2016, 17:19

careful_eugene wrote:Does anyone have any ideas of what we could reasonably do with these people? I assume we couldn't just ship them back to Turkey as there is no agreement between Turkey and the EU at the moment and the Turks could just refuse to accept them. Does the EU have a legal or moral obligation to provide food and shelter?

Well, short of sticking them on boats and sending them back in the direction from which they came, any other solution is going to have to involve countries of origin which, given the state of many of those countries, is going to be quite a mission. Though, I understand that Greece is attempting precisely that.

failing all of the above, the EU is more or less stuck with them. One of the many reasons to vote out in the coming referendum since there will be an attempt by Germany and other countries stupid enough to have taken so many, to try and spread them out. But, it is quite clear that other countries that have not, hitherto, been that stupid, are not going to take them. This will be the death of the EU.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 15 Mar 2016, 17:41

careful_eugene wrote:Does anyone have any ideas of what we could reasonably do with these people?

Depends on their status. If they are "legitimate refugees" then they have to be provided with somewhere to live, safely (though not citizenship - they have to apply for asylum). If they are deemed "economic migrants" (and most of these will fall into that category) then they can be deported back to their home countries.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 15 Mar 2016, 17:47

biffvernon wrote: I just make a determined effort to never read any of the posts from the three people here who have been personally abusive.

Handy. That allows you to continue believing whatever you fancy, with no regard to what is actually happening in the world.

careful_eugene · Post by **careful_eugene** » 15 Mar 2016, 17:48

UndercoverElephant wrote:
careful_eugene wrote:Does anyone have any ideas of what we could reasonably do with these people?
Depends on their status. If they are "legitimate refugees" then they have to be provided with somewhere to live, safely (though not citizenship - they have to apply for asylum). If they are deemed "economic migrants" (and most of these will fall into that category) then they can be deported back to their home countries.

Can we deport people if we have no way of knowing their country of origin i.e they have lost or destroyed their identification.

jonny2mad · Post by **jonny2mad** » 15 Mar 2016, 19:22

biffvernon wrote:
Automaton wrote: Biff is absolutely not going to listen to anything anyone says if he doesn't already agree with it, no matter how sensible or logical, so he's effectively just winding you up.

You're all better than this; just ignore whatever he writes. It's working for me!
Actually, I just make a determined effort to never read any of the posts from the three people here who have been personally abusive. If they are continuing then I hope it amuses others.

I've never been personally abusive.

I said you were like a cat lady taking in cats (or in your case refugees ) when you couldnt look after them . Thats not abuse its putting forth your position.

As I said my dear mother was like that, I understand the mindset .

if I was being abusive by saying that I would have been insulting my old mother

jonny2mad · Post by **jonny2mad** » 15 Mar 2016, 19:24

in a way I'm comparing you to my old mother thats a compliment surely

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 15 Mar 2016, 19:37

careful_eugene wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:
careful_eugene wrote:Does anyone have any ideas of what we could reasonably do with these people?
Depends on their status. If they are "legitimate refugees" then they have to be provided with somewhere to live, safely (though not citizenship - they have to apply for asylum). If they are deemed "economic migrants" (and most of these will fall into that category) then they can be deported back to their home countries.
Can we deport people if we have no way of knowing their country of origin i.e they have lost or destroyed their identification.

Interesting question. I don't know the answer, but I suspect it doesn't happen very often, because most migrants will try first to apply for asylum, and the first question they will be asked is their nationality. If they refuse to answer, they can't apply for asylum, but as you suggest, the authorities then don't know where to deport them to. However, given that we can probably guess most of their home countries and there are people whose job it is to talk to migrants in their native tongues, then I doubt it would be very easy for them to hide it. Even if they speak very good English, the accent is likely to be a giveaway.

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 15 Mar 2016, 19:51

careful_eugene wrote:Does anyone have any ideas of what we could reasonably do with these people? I assume we couldn't just ship them back to Turkey as there is no agreement between Turkey and the EU at the moment and the Turks could just refuse to accept them. Does the EU have a legal or moral obligation to provide food and shelter?

The catch there is the word "reasonably" . I fully expect that Europeans will soon be forced to do things they find both unreasonable and inhumane but are proved to be necessary to the survival of Europe.

Post by **clv101** » 15 Mar 2016, 22:03

UndercoverElephant wrote:Interesting question. I don't know the answer, ...

This is key. As far as I can tell there aren't any answers, at least not that anything like a majority would agree acceptable. The situation is a mess, and I'm very wary of anyone proposing answers, solutions or whatever. 'No borders' is extremely problematic, as is establishing firm borders, or building walls(!) given the state of the world.

Given how messy the situation is I'm amazed at the strength of opposing opinion expressed here. Those supporting Merkel's position don't seem to give nearly enough attention to the very real local problems associated with it and equally those supporting a 'tough', or nationalistic response to migrants don't seem to give nearly enough attention to the plight many hundreds of thousands of people find themselves in.

The situation is not black and white, there isn't straightforward answer, beware anyone addressing this situation with confidence.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 15 Mar 2016, 22:06

The UNHCR is a voice of reason.

"A tragedy of this scale demands solidarity beyond funding. Put simply, we need more countries to share the load by taking a greater share of refugees from what has become the biggest displacement crisis of a generation,"

http://www.unhcr.org/56e6e1b991.html

jonny2mad · Post by **jonny2mad** » 15 Mar 2016, 22:22

clv101 wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:Interesting question. I don't know the answer, ...
This is key. As far as I can tell there aren't any answers, at least not that anything like a majority would agree acceptable. The situation is a mess, and I'm very wary of anyone proposing answers, solutions or whatever. 'No borders' is extremely problematic, as is establishing firm borders, or building walls(!) given the state of the world.

Given how messy the situation is I'm amazed at the strength of opposing opinion expressed here. Those supporting Merkel's position don't seem to give nearly enough attention to the very real local problems associated with it and equally those supporting a 'tough', or nationalistic response to migrants don't seem to give nearly enough attention to the plight many hundreds of thousands of people find themselves in.

The situation is not black and white, there isn't straightforward answer, beware anyone addressing this situation with confidence.

Well my view going forward is the people who will survive a collapse are going to be the heartless, or at least the people who have strong in group out group boundaries .

I think you can see this in europe being played out today the fluffy ie the germans and swedes and french and us have imported a 5th column who will grow and at some point attack the state from inside .

Various other european countrys have refused to go down this crazy route they are more likely to grow and thrive .

Before this all happened I said the countrys that survive will be the ones building walls and willing to shoot refugees, thats still my view