Greece Watch...

[AutomaticEarth]

Does the Independent also count as MSM?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 63749.html

I guess I should have said that it was the view of the Telegraph

Apparently protesters are now clashing with the police now.....

[johnhemming2]

The article in The Independent is, however, authored by Caroline Lucas and should not necessarily be taken as the view of The Independent.

She misses the point of debt relief. What matters to Greece is not the total amount they theoretically owe today, but how much money they will have to pay and when. Hence asking for a debt write off is politically difficult. Asking for time to pay (and low interest) is not.

Furthermore there is no way they will get agreement on that aspect today - particularly given the public fuss they have made about it. Historically the Greeks have been bad at implementing the international agreements with their creditors. The creditors want to see movement on that.

The IMF are often unpopular because they impose strong conditions before they are willing to lend money. However, they do lend money. If the debtor countries could manage to run without the loans they would not have to follow the conditions.

[Little John]

Why has the UK and US not been subject to Greek style Austerity if it is (a) good for a country and (b), as you, Mr Hemmings, have consistently suggested, a sovereign state should be held to account for the debts of its private banks whilst simultaneously enduring a (self or externally) imposed environment of extreme and unprecedented, in modern times, austerity on its people? Indeed, why have they engaged in precisely the opposite strategy of printing money in a way that is also historically unprecedented? Presumably, you would see this as a terrible thing since it is diametrically the opposite of that which is being imposed on Greece?

For all of your talk about debt obligations, you have yet to address this question. I am not the first to ask it of you. A straight answer if you please.

[biffvernon]

The article in The Independent is, however, authored by Caroline Lucas and should not necessarily be taken as the view of The Independent.

I didn't think The Independent had a view. There's a clue in the name.

[johnhemming2]

Why has the UK and US not been subject to Greek style Austerity if it is (a) good for a country and (b), as you, Mr Hemmings, have consistently suggested, a sovereign state should be held to account for the debts of its private banks whilst simultaneously enduring a (self or externally) imposed environment of extreme and unprecedented, in modern times, austerity on its people? Indeed, why have they engaged in precisely the opposite strategy of printing money in a way that is also historically unprecedented? Presumably, you would see this as a terrible thing since it is diametrically the opposite of that which is being imposed on Greece?

For all of your talk about debt obligations, you have yet to address this question. I am not the first to ask it of you. A straight answer if you please.

Your question is wrong in its theses. However, you might find it worth reading Ricardo Hausmann's piece about Greece that I linked to previously.

[johnhemming2]

The article in The Independent is, however, authored by Caroline Lucas and should not necessarily be taken as the view of The Independent.

I didn't think The Independent had a view. There's a clue in the name.

The independent does produce editorials. I am sure I can find one if you want me to.

[3rdRock]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/j ... e-shortage

Greek economy close to collapse as food and medicine run short

Greece’s economy is on the brink of collapse after the capital controls imposed ahead of Sunday’s referendum left the country with food and drugs shortages, the tourist industry facing a wave of cancellations and the banks with barely enough money to survive the weekend.

Banks said they had a €1bn cash buffer to see them through the weekend – equal to just €90 (£64) a head for the 11 million-strong population – and would require immediate help from the European Central Bank on Monday whatever the result of the referendum, in which the two sides are running neck and neck.

Alexis Tsipras, Greece’s prime minister, was fighting for his political life on Friday night, using a rally to say that a no vote would enable him to negotiate a reform-for-debt-relief deal with the country’s creditors.

The survival of the Syriza coalition, formed just over five months ago to repudiate five years of austerity programmes, was in doubt as Greece started to suffer shortages in basic provisions, including the sale of vital drugs in pharmacies nationwide.

Medication and food staples, such as sugar and flour, were fast running out on Friday as consumers started to feel the effect of the restrictions.

[Little John]

Why has the UK and US not been subject to Greek style Austerity if it is (a) good for a country and (b), as you, Mr Hemmings, have consistently suggested, a sovereign state should be held to account for the debts of its private banks whilst simultaneously enduring a (self or externally) imposed environment of extreme and unprecedented, in modern times, austerity on its people? Indeed, why have they engaged in precisely the opposite strategy of printing money in a way that is also historically unprecedented? Presumably, you would see this as a terrible thing since it is diametrically the opposite of that which is being imposed on Greece?

For all of your talk about debt obligations, you have yet to address this question. I am not the first to ask it of you. A straight answer if you please.

Your question is wrong in its theses. However, you might find it worth reading Ricardo Hausmann's piece about Greece that I linked to previously.

Bullshit. Parts of the USA were in just as bad a position as Greece and parts were not, just like other parts of Europe were not. Similarly, for the UK. By your own logic, the EU should be disbanded since it does not even meet its own raison_d’être and, as a consequence, certainly does not meet the needs of Greece.

Answer the question.

[biffvernon]

Chomsky

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2015/7 ... za_spain_s

(Always good to appeal to authority )

And what, pray tell, do you think of Pablo Iglesias, John H? Another academic with a cv as long as your arm pretending to be a politician?

[clv101]

Parts of the USA were in just as bad a position as Greece and parts were not, just like other parts of Europe were not. Similarly, for the UK. By your own logic, the EU should be disbanded since it does not even meet its own raison_d’être and, as a consequence, certainly does not meet the needs of Greece.

I've often been impressed/surprised at the internal wealth transfers between states in the US. Their richer states richer and any European country, their poorer, even poorer. There seems little serious opposition to these transfers.

What would it take for Europe to sustain such similar inter-state cross subsidy?

[peaceful_life]

Parts of the USA were in just as bad a position as Greece and parts were not, just like other parts of Europe were not. Similarly, for the UK. By your own logic, the EU should be disbanded since it does not even meet its own raison_d’être and, as a consequence, certainly does not meet the needs of Greece.

I've often been impressed/surprised at the internal wealth transfers between states in the US. Their richer states richer and any European country, their poorer, even poorer. There seems little serious opposition to these transfers.

What would it take for Europe to sustain such similar inter-state cross subsidy?

Decency, civility, integrity, honour(?)

[biffvernon]

I've often been impressed/surprised at the internal wealth transfers between states in the US. Their richer states richer and any European country, their poorer, even poorer. There seems little serious opposition to these transfers.

What would it take for Europe to sustain such similar inter-state cross subsidy?

A proper United States of Europe. Now there's a plan.

Meanwhile, Molly's been talking sense again:

Green MEP, Molly Scott Cato, has responded with alarm to comments by the president of the European Parliament, Martin Schulz, on Sunday’s Greek referendum on European Union and International Monetary Fund bailout conditions. Schulz told German Handelsblatt business daily that new elections would be necessary following a Yes vote and that President Tsipras would need to resign. He also said that in such an event, the country would need to be ‘bridged with a technocratic government’, so that negotiations could continue. Dr Scott Cato, an economist who sits on the Economics Committee in the European Parliament, has expressed her deep concern at these comments:

“Martin Schulz appears to be suggesting that if a democratic government will not agree to the Eurogroup’s conditions it should be replaced. This intervention in the domestic politics of an EU member state is wholly inappropriate and quite unacceptable. It is not the job of the President of the Parliament to impose an interim government of technocrats to do the bidding of financial markets. It is for the people of Greece to make a democratic decision about their future and not up to Schultz to decide, or indeed threaten, what this future would or could look like.”

http://mollymep.org.uk/2015/07/03/sugge ... -says-mep/

Funny how the best politicians seem to have PhDs and professorships and suchlike.

[johnhemming2]

And what, pray tell, do you think of Pablo Iglesias, John H? Another academic with a cv as long as your arm pretending to be a politician?

Just because someone has a long CV does not mean they are right.

In the end the Greek Government does have choices. They cannot be removed directly by the Eurozone - unlike the situation where in the UK a local authority decides to have unbalanced budgets - then the councillors can be removed from power by parliament.

It is a question of choices. If the Greeks want the EZ to give them money (or their banks money for greeks who want to transfer the cash outside Greece) then they have to come to an agreement.

The EU has for many years had internal transfers from the richer countries to the poorer countries.

This BBC webpage
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe ... .stm#start

Says that the Greek net benefit is EUR 5.7bn. (ish).

I had a figure of 4.

More than twice as much per capita than the next (Poland)

[Little John]

Still not answering the question I see. I've noticed this now a few times. As soon as an awkward question arises, you try and move the goalposts and/or obfuscate. The first time, on the pensions issue. And now the central question;

In the absence of maintaining social, political and economic integrity in Europe. What exactly is the EU for?

Pathetic.

[johnhemming2]

You clearly have not read Ricardo Hausmann's article.

Try telling me what "the question" is?

One question. Not a meaningless woffle asking me to comment.