Proud to be British?

[biffvernon]

Dare you read this article in today's Observer? http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jan/1 ... rture-iraq

[Little John]

Dare you read this article in today's Observer? http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jan/1 ... rture-iraq

If one takes a load of low educational status young men from economically deprived backgrounds, trains them how to follow orders without question and how to act violently as a team, then arms them to the teeth and sends them to a part of the world where everyone is shooting at them, what exactly did people expect them to do once they got there? The fact is, most humans are not interested in hurting other humans unless they feel threatened and unless they feel that they are inflicting hurt on people who are somehow less human than they are. Therefore, a significant part of military training has inevitably to do with ensuring the enemy is seen as a threat and is also thoroughly dehumanised.

This has got nothing in particular to do with being British. It's just what soldiers do. It's is an indirect consequence of their training no matter what gloss is applied in terms of public relations. I would even argue that certain sections of UK military command may even be implicated in it, if only indirectly.

As for the British culture more generally, if anything it will have probably mitigated the scale of the behaviour in that it may have been much more widespread had these soldiers not been British.

None of which excuses the behaviour.

[adam2]

Well I am in general proud to be British, though that does not mean that I am proud of every action taken by our government, armed forces, or indeed some civilians.

[jonny2mad]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... n-war.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/dec/1 ... opstories3

you can find much worse storys

There are quite a few books about our treatment of Germen POW and civilians after world war two, most have a limited readership and hollywood don't make films about those victims .
But you still see films like inglorious bastards, with brad pitt glorifying beating to death German POW with baseball bats as mainstream entertainment .

[JavaScriptDonkey]

Dare you read this article in today's Observer? http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jan/1 ... rture-iraq

Of course I am as it it is being reported in a British newspaper.
Try that in North Korea or Cuba.

[stumuzz]

Very proud.

[Tarrel]

Dare you read this article in today's Observer? http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jan/1 ... rture-iraq

If one takes a load of low educational status young men from economically deprived backgrounds, trains them how to follow orders without question and how to act violently as a team, then arms them to the teeth and sends them to a part of the world where everyone is shooting at them, what exactly did people expect them to do once they got there? The fact is, most humans are not interested in hurting other humans unless they feel threatened and unless they feel that they are inflicting hurt on people who are somehow less human than they are. Therefore, a significant part of military training has inevitably to do with ensuring the enemy is seen as a threat and is also thoroughly dehumanised.

This has got nothing in particular to do with being British. It's just what soldiers do. It's is an indirect consequence of their training no matter what gloss is applied in terms of public relations. I would even argue that certain sections of UK military command may even be implicated in it, if only indirectly.

As for the British culture more generally, if anything it will have probably mitigated the scale of the behaviour in that it may have been much more widespread had these soldiers not been British.

None of which excuses the behaviour.

It's also nothing particularly new. From the Boer war to the Raj, our armed forces have been throwing their weight about for quite some time.

[ujoni08]

Apparently British officials/soldiers killed almost twenty-seven thousand women and children in Africa:

http://www.geni.com/projects/British-Co ... 0-1902/854

[Kentucky Fried Panda]

Apparently British officials/soldiers killed almost twenty-seven thousand women and children in Africa:

http://www.geni.com/projects/British-Co ... 0-1902/854

That article quotes around another 15 000 Africans who died in the camps, but recent figures estimate it could have been as many as 57 000 indigenous people who died in British concentration camps.

[jonny2mad]

http://www.whale.to/b/starvation_of_germans.html

9 million germans starved by allies after world war two

http://chronicle.com/article/The-Europe ... ou/132123/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqDf7wGw1RA

I used to talk a lot to world war veterans so I heard storys of us starving germans before I read about them online.

I think the numbers are far greater than the boer war, and we don't watch films glorifying torturing boers or 19th century africans, but films where we do that to germans are sold in tesco right now .

[RenewableCandy]

"Asif" claims that when soldiers came to arrest his elderly father, he said: "So you are the British people?" He testifies that the soldiers paralysed the old man with the blow of a rifle butt and stamped on Asif's young son's head when the boy tried to help his grandfather. "What I know of the British people is the opposite of what you are doing," said Asif.

Quite.

Britain has a bloody awful past. More recently we're supposed to have a reputation for "fair play". You can't undo the past, you can only hope these guys get a fair hearing and that the forces learn from it the same way as they actually did learn after Bloody Sunday.

[Kentucky Fried Panda]

I just finished watching Zero Dark 30 and there is a lot of torture in there. All justified in the search of OBL of course. There's a part of the film where they lament the passing of easy torture, laws and human rights caught up with even the CIA.

Zero Dark 30

[JavaScriptDonkey]

It's probably worth comparing the historic atrocities of the British Empire with those of other nations.

Particularly Belgium.

(not suitable for the faint hearted)

[biffvernon]

I would even argue that certain sections of UK military command may even be implicated in it, if only indirectly.

Not just indirectly. The military has very clear lines of command, responsibility and accountability. The buck passes up that chain of command and stops with the then Prime Minister. And where is he now?

[JohnB]

Not just indirectly. The military has very clear lines of command, responsibility and accountability. The buck passes up that chain of command and stops with the then Prime Minister. And where is he now?

Making peace in the Middle East isn't he?