Heinburg's Peak denial + Monbiot's We were wrong on Peak Oil

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Lord Beria3
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

Good roundup.

But I think you must understand something. Peak Oil was always relegated to a second spot. Climate change was what the left wanted to talk about. It's disastrous enough, but there's still years and years away so there isn't that imminent personal danger that Peak Oil presents.

Second, Peak Oil, if you truly embrace it, would also cancel out climate change to a large extent. Why? Because in the IPCC scenarios, they use the IEA estimate of the year 2000 for oil production as a base case. That will never happen, as we all know. Even the IEA has revised it's estimates many times the last decade - all downwards.

And if you've invested as much time, energy and emotion into something only to be told, actually, Peak Oil will cancel it out mostly and we have much less time; then it isn't attractive.

Now having said all of this; he is right that the doomsters have been wrong. This includes a lot of people on this site, and it includes ASPO too. People have simply negated any gains in NGLs, biofuels and so on as 'temporary blips'. Well, they aren't. And NGLs in particular will increase as oil shale/shale oil(they are different) as well as shale gas production increases.

And even shale oil itself has beaten everyone's expectations. Add to that the economic incentives, as oil prices go up long-lost production fields become viable again. Efficiency isn't a small pickle either.

All these things have been dismissed in Peak Oil circles. There's been a bit of a cult here sometimes where even the most minor skeptic is met with huge hostility.

Still.. We need to add 12-15 mb/d over the next decade, barring continuous recession. But even then we'll need at least 8 mb/d more than we do now.

Even if you take the optimistic-realistic base case, there's no way to get there. And Russia is drilling more and more wells just to keep up production. They need very, very high oil costs just to self-finance the spiralling CapEx costs. This is a sign of a country in the twilight of a peak. Soon Russia will need $120, and after that $130 dollars just to keep even with all the CapEx costs. It is self-explainable that such a phenomenom cannot continue for long.

The peakists have lost out for being too alarmist and too inflexible of a counter-point. Still, the basic premise is right. It won't be as dramatic as many thought. It's a slow process of erosion. But we are entering the phase already.

The cornucopian argument Mobiot is advancing is simply not credible. It's CERA-level. But people will be swayed by it unless the peakists get more nuanced
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/9267#comments_top

Good comment from the Oil Drum website.

I consider myself guilty of much of the above as well.

I remember posting articles a couple of years ago that natural gas production in the US was about to collapse and prices explode upwards. Errr, not quite, gas production in the US has surged and prices have collapsed downwards.

We in the Peak Oil 'movement' do need to hedge our comments a little more even if our basic message is correct and will continue to be so. Furthermore, even though our predictions haven't been totally accurate, they have certainly been closer to the mark then the denialists.
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Lord Beria3
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-pos ... juggernaut

Regarding coal as the energy fuel of choice for the emerging markets for the coming decades, this article is superb and a must read for anybody who wants to understand the energy dynamics of the coming years.
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Post by PS_RalphW »

If it is any consolation Beria, I was predicting a collapse of USA NG production 8 years ago, just as tight gas production (fracking) was just eploding onto the scene.

US NG production will not collapse for a couple more years at least, and even then it will be a small collapse back by 5 -10 % so that the price rises to a level that can sustain fracking for a another decade or so.
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

Ralph - I think the lesson to be learnt here, following the coal article, is that although oil supply will overall stagnate and start to decline at some point, the world will just increase their consumption of gas and coal even more.

We are going to face severe problems down the line, but I am starting to sense how some kind of BAU will continue for at least the next 20 years. Again, the Limits to Growth modelling is remarkably close to what appears is going to happen.

I have a printout of their modelling for the next 80 years on my desk... it reminds me of how long we (probably) have until economic crash triggers population falls- around 2030!
Peace always has been and always will be an intermittent flash of light in a dark history of warfare, violence, and destruction
Aurora

Post by Aurora »

Jeremy Leggett - The Guardian - 04/07/12

Monbiot says he was wrong on peak oil but the crisis is undeniable

Many within the fossil fuel industry are sounding alarms. Society ignores such warnings – and listens to potential bubble-backers like Monbiot – at its peril.

Article continues ...
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2 ... g-peak-oil

This is a good commentary on Monbiots article.
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Post by raspberry-blower »

They're coming thick and fast over at Energy Bulletin.

This, from Ugo Bardi:

http://energybulletin.net/stories/2012- ... fry-us-all
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Post by raspberry-blower »

Then there's this from Sharon Astyk:
Sharon Astyk wrote:Among environmentalists it was never clear, even to ourselves, whether or not we wanted it to happen. It had the potential both to shock the world into economic transformation, averting future catastrophes, and to generate catastrophes of its own, including a shift into even more damaging technologies, such as biofuels and petrol made from coal. Even so, peak oil was a powerful lever. Governments, businesses and voters who seemed impervious to the moral case for cutting the use of fossil fuels might, we hoped, respond to the economic case.

That, I think, either says more about George Monbiot than about “environmentalists” or it is straight out horse shit. As noted above, no one with four brain cells to rub together has ever thought that peak oil could get us out of climate change – since the emergent consensus that 350ppm might represent a critical tipping point, there’s very little debate on this subject by credible scholars, simply because we know we could cross that line because we have.

Moreover, anyone familiar with the issues never thought that peak oil was an answer to the climate crisis – while there are considerable debates on how much coal there is in the ground, no one who takes peak oil seriously doubts that an energy crisis will drive us to burning more coal to generate compensatory electricity, to burning more wood in areas that have relied on heating oil, to hunger because of the tremendous oil dependency of our food system. Did “environmentalists” want it to happen? The biggest drivers of climate change are unlikely to be helped in the near term by peak oil – and most people could figure that out. So did we want it? Ummm…yeah, kind of the same way I want to have six root canals with blunt dental instruments and no anaesthesia.
http://energybulletin.net/stories/2012- ... k-oil-over
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Post by clv101 »

Sharon Astyk wrote:Moreover, anyone familiar with the issues never thought that peak oil was an answer to the climate crisis – while there are considerable debates on how much coal there is in the ground, no one who takes peak oil seriously doubts that an energy crisis will drive us to burning more coal to generate compensatory electricity...

I have my doubts! If peak oil crashes the economy - Soviet style, then it'll also crash electricity demand/generation. Even if there's abundant coal, that doesn't mean BAU demand will survive to burn it.
Aurora

Post by Aurora »

Letters Column - The Guardian - 05/07/12

Oil supply problems may abate, as George Monbiot suggests (Comment, 2 July), but crises are likely to return soon because of demand pressures. The oil crises of the 1970s were resolved in the 80s because of a mixture of expansion in oil supply, encouraged by high oil prices, as is happening today, but also by the substitution of oil use – by other fuels in electricity production, industry and in domestic central heating. However, there was no substitution in the transport sector, which has been expanding ever since.

The increase in car use in emerging economies is not going away and it will be quite a few years before substitution of oil by electricity in cars makes a big impact. The fall in oil prices – following the recent slowdown in world economic activity – is likely to be followed by a temporary return to growth. But this in turn will be followed by a further oil price spike and recession. In the longer term there is likely to be a natural gas resource crisis as more and more is used to produce electricity used by cars. We must focus on both resource and climate issues. The world should be negotiating agreements covering conservation of fuel use in cars as well as pursuing effective climate change agreements. Otherwise we will both fry and have resource crises.

Dr David Toke
University of Birmingham




George Monbiot could equally validly have written in support of peak oil. We've had four years of oil prices many times the long-term average. Oil use and extractions flatlined as the global economy crashed. BP's Energy Review now includes non-conventional sources, such as tar sands and oil shales, in its oil production figures. These facts support the likelihood that the world's demand for oil has now exceeded the supply available from conventional sources alone, just as peak oilers predicted. Extracting the large non-conventional reserves requires enhanced techniques and a much higher market price for oil. A long-term expectation of higher energy prices will result not only in more shale oil extraction and gas fracking, but should also support renewable technologies, speed energy-saving investment and the development of new low-energy technologies. Let's try to see the upside sometimes.

Lucy Care
Derby


Original Article
BrandNewGuy
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Post by BrandNewGuy »

RalphW wrote:
Lord Beria3 wrote:Actually I think that Monbiot is correct.

.
...

Monbiot has taken it as gospel.

His liberal arts education is coming shining through :cry:
To be fair to Monbiot, he studied Zoology at Oxford - not, perhaps, a 'hard' science, but at least it wasn't PPE ;-)

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Post by rue_d_etropal »

For £62K you could have a whole team of writers, plenty of candidates just finished university, or maybe some of those who graduated a couple of years ago writing about how the world has dumped them.
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Post by BrandNewGuy »

The received wisdom is that people buy newspaper for 'name' columnists. Not that people buy newspapers any more... and FWIW, The Guardian's defender of the low-paid, Polly Toynbee, earned £106,000 p.a. in 2009.

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Post by mobbsey »

Sorry for the length of this; I started writing a short repost and then accidentally slipped into rant mode. Anyhow, as this just went to fifty-odd people I thought I might post it here. During the hour or so it took to write this I had three more emails about the Monbiot -- why me Lord, why me! :evil:

Hi all,

I've sat patiently through the various emails between you all. In addition, over the last few days I've separately received four dozen or so emails all asking to "take on" Monbiot.

I don't see any point in "taking on" Monbiot; the points he raises, and the debate that he has initiated, are so off beam compared to the basis of the issues involved that it there's no point proceeding along that line of thought. You can't answer a question if the question itself is not understood!!


Let's get one thing straight -- present economic problems are not simply to do with "oil", but with the more general issue of "limits to growth". That's a complex interaction of resource production, physical sciences/thermodynamics and technology, and relating all of these together, economic theory. Reducing this just to an issue of oil or carbon will fail to answer why the trends we see emerging today are taking place. Instead we have to look towards a process which sees energy, resources, technology and human economics as a single system.

The problem with this whole debate is that those involved -- Monbiot included -- only have the vaguest understanding of how resource depletion interacts with the human economy. And in a similar way, the wider environment movement has been wholly compromised by its failure to engage with the debate over ecological limits as part of their promotion of ethical/ecological lifestyles. Unless you are prepared to adapt to the reality of what the "limits" issues portends for the human economy, you're not going to make any progress on this matter -- either personally, or within the political arena.

Monbiot's greatest mistake is to try and associate peak oil and climate change. They are wholly different issues. In fact, over the last few years one of the greatest mistakes by the environment movement generally (and Monbiot is an exemplar of this) has been to reduce all issues to one progress indicator -- carbon. This "carbonism" has distorted the nature of the debate over human development/progress, and in the process the "business as usual" supertanker has been allowed to thunder on regardless because solving carbon emissions is a fundamentally different type of problem to solving the issue of resource/energy depletion.

Carbon emissions are a secondary effect of economic activity. It is incidental to the economic process, even when measures such as carbon markets are applied. Provided we're not worried about the cost, we can use technological measures to abate emissions -- and government/industry have used this as a filibuster to market a technological agenda in response to calls for action, and thus ignore the wider incompatibility of economic growth with the ecological limits of the Earth's biosphere. As far as I am concerned, many in mainstream environmentalism have been complicit in that process; and have failed to provide the example and leadership necessary to initiate a debate on the true alternatives to more intense/complex industrialisation.

In contrast, physical energy supply is different because it's a prerequisite of economic growth -- you can't have economic activity without a qualitatively sufficient energy supply (yes, the "quality" of the energy is just as important as the physical scale of supply). About half of all growth is the value of new energy supply added to the economy, and another fifth is the result of energy efficiency -- the traditional measures of capital and labour respectively make up a tenth and fifth of growth. As yet mainstream economic theory refuses to internalise the issue of energy quality, and the effect of falling energy/resource returns, even though this is demonstrably one of the failing aspects of our current economic model (debt is the other, but that's an even more complex matter to explore if we're looking at inter-generational effects and the ecological problems this embodies).

Carbon emissions and resource depletion are a function of economic growth. There is an absolute correlation between growth and carbon emissions. I don't just mean that emissions and the rate of depletion fall during recessions -- and thus "recessions are good for the environment". If you look at the rate of growth in emissions over the last 50 years, the change in energy prices has a correlation to changes in carbon emissions as the price of fuel influences economic activity. That's why carbon emissions broke with their historic trend, halving their previous growth rate, after the oil crisis of the 1970s; and why they then rebounded as energy prices fell during the 90s.

The idea that we can "decarbonise" the economy and continue just as before is fundamentally flawed. I know some of you will scream and howl at this idea, but if you look at the research on the interaction between energy and economic productivity there is no other conclusion. Due to their higher energy density and relative ease of use, all fossil fuels have an economic advantage over all the alternatives. That said, as conventional oil and gas deplete, and "unconventional" sources with far lower energy returns are brought into the market, that differential is decreasing -- but we won't reach general parity with a basket of renewables for another decade or two.

Note also this has nothing to do with subsidies, or the dictates of industrial power -- it's a basic physical fact that the energy density of renewables is lower than the historic value of fossil fuels. On a level playing field, renewable energy costs more because it has a lower return on investment than fossil fuels. Of course add carbon capture and fossil fuels would then be worse; which is one reason why the economics of carbon capture do not function competitively in an economic framework defined by unabated fossil fuel use.

We do have the technology to develop a predominantly renewable human economy, but the economic basis of such a system will be wholly different to that we live within today. Unless you are prepared to reform the economic process alongside the changing the resource base of society, we'll never see any realistic change because all such "ecological" viewpoints are inconsistent with the values at the heart of modern capitalism (that's not a political point either, it's just a fact based upon how these systems must operate). E.g., when the Mail/Telegraph trumpet that more wind power will cost more and lower growth/competitiveness, they're right -- but the issue here is not the economic facts about wind, it's that the theories/expectations of continued growth, which they are measuring the performance of wind against, are themselves no longer supported by the physical fundamentals of the human economy.

The fact that all commodity prices have been rising along with growth for the past decade -- a phenomena directly related to the human system hitting the "limits to growth" -- is one of the major factors driving current economic difficulties. Arguably we've been hitting the "limits" since the late 70s -- and in an attempt to remain competitive and grow, capitalism has harvested the 'low hanging fruits' of greater economic efficiency by systematising global social/economic inequality through globalisation. The difficulty in explaining that on a political stage is that we're talking about processes which operate over decades and centuries, not over campaign cycles or political terms of office. As a result, due to the impatience of the present-day political/media agenda, the political debate over limits has suffered because commentators always take too short-term a viewpoint. Monbiot's recent conversion on nuclear or peak oil is such an example, and is at the heart of the report Monbiot cites in justification of his views; a report, not coincidentally, written by a long-term opponent of peak oil theory, working for lobby groups who promote business-as-usual solutions to ecological issues.

Likewise, because the neo-classical economists who advise governments and corporations don't believe in the concept of "limits", the measures they've adopted to try and solve our present difficulties (e.g. quantitative easing) are not helping, but merely forestall the inevitable collapse. For example, we can't borrow money today to spur a recovery today if there will be insufficient growth in the future to pay for that debt. Basically, whilst you may theoretically borrow money from your grandchildren, you can't borrow the physical energy that future economic growth requires to generate that money if it doesn't exist to be used at that future date. Perhaps more perversely, a large number of the economic actors who have expressed support for limits are not advocating ecological solutions to the problem; instead they're cashing-in by trying to advise people how to make short-term money out of economic catastrophe (which of course adds to the problem by fuelling financial speculation).

The present problem is not simply "peak oil". Even if volumetric production remained constant, due to the falling level of energy return on investment of all fossil fuels the effects of rising prices and falling systemic efficiency will still disrupt the economic cycle (this precise trend is at the heart of the current problems with natural gas/fracking in the US energy market). Allied to the problems with the supply of many industrial minerals, especially the minerals which are key to the latest energy and industrial process/energy technologies (e.g. rare earths, indium, gallium, etc.), what we have is a recipe for a general systems failure in the operation of the human system. And again, that's not related to climate change, or simple lack of energy, but because of the systemic complexity of modern human society, and what happens to any complex dynamic system when it is perturbed by external factors.

The worst thing which can happen right now -- even if it were possible, which is entirely doubtful for anything other than a short period spurred by borrowed money -- would be a "return to growth". The idea of "green growth", within the norms of neo-classical economics, is even more fallacious due to the differing thermodynamic factors driving that system. Instead what we have to concentrate upon is changing the political economy of the human system to internalise the issue of limits. At present, apart from a few scientists and green economists on the sidelines, no one is seriously putting that point of view -- not even the Green Party. And as I perceive it from talking to people about this for the last 12 years, that's for a very simple reason... it's not what people, especially the political establishment, want to hear even if it is in their long-term self-interest to take heed of it.

Rio+20 was an absolute failure. In fact what annoyed me the most was that the media kept talking about the "second" Rio conference, when in fact it was the third UNCED conference, the first being the Stockholm conference in '72. If you contrast 1972 with 2012, the results of this year's deliberations were worse than the policies sketched out in the 70s! Seriously, on so many fronts the environment movement is being trounced, and as I see it that's because they have lost the intellectual and theoretical rigour that it possessed in the 70s and 80s. Rather than having a clear alternative vision, what they promote is "more of the same but different".

Once environmentalism became a media campaign about differing consumption options, rather than an clear framework/agenda for evaluating the effects of human consumption and thus advocating change, it lost its ability to dictate the agenda. It is the ability to look forward and observe/anticipate trends unfolding, and to relate those facts however unwelcome those truths might be, which gives groups political power; being part of the "conventional wisdom" which dominates the agenda at any moment in time simply pushes you into the background of similar competing opinion.

Politicians have lost control of the economy because their materialist ambitions no longer fit to the extant reality of the economic process. This outcome was foreseen over 40 years ago by economists like Georgescu-Roegen and Boulding but ignored for political reasons -- even amongst many liberals and especially by the left (Marxism is also a materialist/growth-based agenda). These same principles, based around the issue of limits, were also the founding reality of the modern environment movement; but over the last 20 years the movement has lost this basic grounding in physics and economics as it has moved towards an aspirationally materialist agenda (green consumerism/sustainable consumption, etc.).

Unless you're prepared to talk about limits to growth, and the fact that the economic theories developed over two centuries of unconstrained expansion now have no relevance to a system constrained by physical limits, then you will not solve this problem. Just as with Monbiot's "change" on the issue of nuclear, his failure is a matter of interpretive theory and methodological framework, not of facts or data. Unfortunately people keep throwing data at each other without considering that the framework within which those facts are considered and understood might have changed, and that consequently their conclusions may not be correct. Therefore, until the movement accepts that the rules governing the system have changed, we'll not make progress in advancing viable solutions to present-day difficulties.

To conclude then, Monbiot's mistake isn't about peak oil, or climate change, it's a failure to internalise the physical realities of how "ecological limits" are now driving the human system against our long-standing material ambitions. Unless you consider the interaction of energy, economics and pollution, any abstractions you draw about each of those factors individually will fail to tell you how the system as a whole is functioning. Those limits might dictate the end of "growth economics", but they DO NOT dictate the end of "human development". There are many ways we can address our present economic and environmental difficulties, but that cannot take place unless we accept that changing our material ambitions is a prerequisite of that process.

Let's be clear here. The principles which drive the economy today (e.g., bankers??) would be alien to Adam Smith, John Stuart Mill and others who first laid down the rules of the system two centuries ago. Likewise Marxism and similarly derived economic ideologies have no validity either because they were generated during an era when there were no constraining limits on human activity. There is no "going back" to previous theories/ideologies on this issue because we face a scenario today which humans society -- with the exception of those ancient societies who directly experienced ecological overshoot (Rome, Mayans, Easter Islanders, etc.) -- have never had to face before.

We have to move forward, to evaluate and understand the role of ecological limits within the human economic process, and how this changes our advocacy of "solutions". That debate should be at the heart of the environment movement, and the issue of limits should lead all discussions about all environmental issues -- not green/sustainable consumerism or other measures which seek to reassure and pacify affluent consumers. That said, especially given the demographic skew within membership of the environment movement, we have to begin by being honest with ourselves in accepting the "limits agenda", and what it means for the make-up of our own lives -- and we must begin to enact/live those alternative lifestyles as an exemplar for change.

In the final analysis, you cannot be an environmentalist unless you accept and promote the idea of limits: That was at the heart of the movement from the early 70s; it formed the core of the values developed at that time and which philosophically tied the modern movement to historic groups/movements which espoused these ideas in the past; and if we want to present a viable alternative to disaster capitalism then that is once again a "limits" agenda which we must develop and promote as an alternative.


Peace 'n love 'n' home made hummus,

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Post by kenneal - lagger »

Moonbat has convinced himself that Business As Usual will carry on and so will find any "evidence" to support that theory in his own mind. You have to weight anything he says against this state of mind. Unfortunately someone is willing to pay him for his "opinions" and then publish them as educated comment.
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