Dieoff starting in Africa

GlynG · Post by **GlynG** » 10 Jul 2011, 00:29

UndercoverElephant wrote:we also happen to be talking about the birthplace of Homo sapiens, or close enough. This hostile environment is supposedly our natural home.

Well yes, but it was also naturally covered in large amounts of tree cover - we've chopped the majority of that down which has had big impacts on the water, soil, climate and livelihood of those in the continent.

Post by **clv101** » 10 Jul 2011, 07:49

maudibe wrote:
clv101 wrote:Also, I expect, for most of the people, most of the time, the quality of life is okay.
Erm...nope, not really. Also 10 million dying is a lot (on a humanitarian level - - nothing to nature) ...even if it is 'occasional'...which it is not.

No, clv, it's a shit hole of magnitude.

Depends what we're talking about, 10 million out of ~a billion, still leaves a lot of scope for most of the people, most of the time to have an okay life in Africa. I've been to Senegal and worked with people in Mali and Ivory Coast, the macroscopic data for these places sounds pretty bad - but for most of the people, most of the time, life's not that bad.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 10 Jul 2011, 09:34

The Horn of Africa is a beautiful land. Until the natural vegetation was destroyed by exploitation by foreigners and the oceans fished out by foreigners it was a land more than fit for its indigenous population.

And see more pictures at: http://things.co.il/864

madibe · Post by **madibe** » 10 Jul 2011, 10:06

Ah.... but there is a lot of this:

2 As and a B · Post by **2 As and a B** » 10 Jul 2011, 11:35

Ludwig wrote:
2 As and a B wrote:When I see those scenes from the Horn of Africa (oh-er missus), I count the children until I fall asleep.
Whatever one thinks of overpopulation, that comment is in extremely poor taste and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Typically sanctimonious comment.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 10 Jul 2011, 11:48

What is it about our psychology that makes us view people in Africa differently to people in Surrey?

Ludwig · Post by **Ludwig** » 10 Jul 2011, 11:59

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 10 Jul 2011, 12:00

biffvernon wrote:What is it about our psychology that makes us view people in Africa differently to people in Surrey?

Nothing.

People in Surrey did not suffer a serious drought/famine in 1984, requiring the rest of the world to send them vast amounts of aid to keep them alive. People in Surrey did not respond by choosing to have seven babies, each of which had seven babies.

There's too many people on the planet, Biff. The problem is not that people like us are "psychologically viewing Africans differently." The problem is that the Africans are behaving differently. If this was happening elsewhere in the world then I would not view it any differently. The truth, however, is that this keeps on happening in Africa. We could go into the reasons for that if you like, but I suspect you won't enjoy the discussion very much.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 10 Jul 2011, 12:01

biffvernon wrote:The Horn of Africa is a beautiful land. Until the natural vegetation was destroyed by exploitation by foreigners...

I've just about had enough of reading your nonsense, Biff. This problem was not caused by "foreigners." It was caused by Ethiopians and Somalians.

GET REAL. Alternatively, why don't you go and join them in their self-created hell-hole? Maybe it might finally ram some realism into the space between your ears.

Sorry to be rude, but you need a wake-up call.

Post by **clv101** » 10 Jul 2011, 12:05

UndercoverElephant wrote:
biffvernon wrote:The Horn of Africa is a beautiful land. Until the natural vegetation was destroyed by exploitation by foreigners...
I've just about had enough of reading your nonsense, Biff. This problem was not caused by "foreigners." It was caused by Ethiopians and Somalians.

GET REAL. Alternatively, why don't you go and join them in their self-created hell-hole? Maybe it might finally ram some realism into the space between your ears.

Sorry to be rude, but you need a wake-up call.

We don't live in a binary world! There are many compounding factors, including western exploitation.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 10 Jul 2011, 12:38

clv101 wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:
biffvernon wrote:The Horn of Africa is a beautiful land. Until the natural vegetation was destroyed by exploitation by foreigners...
I've just about had enough of reading your nonsense, Biff. This problem was not caused by "foreigners." It was caused by Ethiopians and Somalians.

GET REAL. Alternatively, why don't you go and join them in their self-created hell-hole? Maybe it might finally ram some realism into the space between your ears.

Sorry to be rude, but you need a wake-up call.
We don't live in a binary world! There are many compounding factors, including western exploitation.

Yes there are compounding factors. But to read Biff's post anybody would believe that the people caught up in this are entirely the victims of misbehaving outsiders, with thinly-veiled suggestions that anybody who disagrees is a racist.

Why does Biff expect people in other nations on Earth to take responsibility for themselves but think that when Africa gets into trouble, it's all the fault of white colonialists and modern western manipulators?

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 10 Jul 2011, 13:18

Having lots of babies is natural
Tribal conflict is natural, esp. When resources are tight
Living 'short' lifespan is natural
Not living in cities is natural
Singing & dancing is natural
-
Only 1 or 2 babies isn't natural
Living so long that vegetation is odds on isn't natural
Living in mega cities with lots of straight lines isn't
Never singing/dancing isn't natural
Giving aid to strangers in anpther continent isn't natural

People in africa are living in a natural way. it's us in the west which aren't. what's happening now is also natural, and occurs in nature by various animal and plant species. don't need to preach about birth control, or try to 'civilise'. just don't give money or food. let nature happen, and balance occur. in the long-term people will be better off. in the west, we concentrate too much on quantity over quality.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 10 Jul 2011, 13:41

Yeah Nature can be pretty nasty but our intelligence should be enough to make life mostly pleasant.

The acacia trees of Somalia were cut down to make charcoal for rich foreigner's barbies, the fish hoovered out of the sea to feed to animals so that rich foreigners can put meat on their barbies.

People in Surrey (and Lincolnshire) have made a much bigger contribution to screwing up the planet than the people of Somalia.

To deny this and to show no compassion is a double bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGeXdv-uPaw&sns=fb

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 10 Jul 2011, 14:21

biffvernon wrote:Yeah Nature can be pretty nasty but our intelligence should be enough to make life mostly pleasant.

The acacia trees of Somalia were cut down BY AFRICANS to make charcoal for rich foreigner's barbies, the fish hoovered out of the sea BY AFRICANS to feed to animals so that rich foreigners can put meat on their barbies.

Nobody forced those people to destroy their environment in order to sell products to people in other countries. They chose to do this.

People in Surrey (and Lincolnshire) have made a much bigger contribution to screwing up the planet than the people of Somalia.

Nobody is denying that, Biff. However, it has got nothing to do with the current debate.

To deny this and to show no compassion is a double bad.

You still don't get it.

Was Live Aid compassionate? Is it compassionate to multiply the overall amount of misery? You aren't seeing the bigger picture here.

2 As and a B · Post by **2 As and a B** » 10 Jul 2011, 16:57

It is an indisputable fact that everyone dies, sooner or later. Get used to it. All this crap about "saving lives" is just that. Crap.