We are saved!

Hydro-electricity? Fusion? Thermal Depolarization? Do we have any other real alternatives? Including utility scale energy storage.

Moderator: Peak Moderation

kenneal - lagger
Site Admin
Posts: 14287
Joined: 20 Sep 2006, 02:35
Location: Newbury, Berkshire
Contact:

Re: We are saved!

Post by kenneal - lagger »

johnny wrote: 27 Dec 2022, 22:26
Catweazle wrote: 27 Dec 2022, 16:57 Indeed, those clever monkeys have a habit of making things happen much sooner than predicted. To put it in perspective, though, I well remember when nuclear power stations were predicted to produce electricity "too cheap to meter" and computers were going to give us so much free time that "mankind's biggest problem will be what to do in all that leisure time".
I loved the "too cheap to meter" claim. A classic. And typical stupid, there must not have been an economist around to disabuse them when they claimed it. Or maybe it just required a capitalist around to giggle when it was being claimed, to let the writers know that they would darn well find a way to charge th going rate if only to allow them and their friends to make a mint.
But mainstream economists claim that we can have infinite growth in a finite environment! On that basis why couldn't we have electricity that is too cheap to meter?
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
User avatar
Catweazle
Posts: 3391
Joined: 17 Feb 2008, 12:04
Location: Petite Bourgeois, over the hills

Re: We are saved!

Post by Catweazle »

johnny wrote: 27 Dec 2022, 22:26
Catweazle wrote: 27 Dec 2022, 16:57 Indeed, those clever monkeys have a habit of making things happen much sooner than predicted. To put it in perspective, though, I well remember when nuclear power stations were predicted to produce electricity "too cheap to meter" and computers were going to give us so much free time that "mankind's biggest problem will be what to do in all that leisure time".
I loved the "too cheap to meter" claim. A classic. And typical stupid, there must not have been an economist around to disabuse them when they claimed it. Or maybe it just required a capitalist around to giggle when it was being claimed, to let the writers know that they would darn well find a way to charge th going rate if only to allow them and their friends to make a mint.
At the time the UK power industry was owned by the population / government, so the popular dream was that we'd be getting free energy courtesy of technology for the benefit of the people. Naturally that would never have been allowed even if the technology could have delivered, but we dreamed.
johnny
Posts: 324
Joined: 15 Aug 2017, 16:07

Re: We are saved!

Post by johnny »

kenneal - lagger wrote: 27 Dec 2022, 23:19
johnny wrote: 27 Dec 2022, 22:26 I loved the "too cheap to meter" claim. A classic. And typical stupid, there must not have been an economist around to disabuse them when they claimed it. Or maybe it just required a capitalist around to giggle when it was being claimed, to let the writers know that they would darn well find a way to charge th going rate if only to allow them and their friends to make a mint.
But mainstream economists claim that we can have infinite growth in a finite environment!
Can you provide a reference for an economist writing this down somewhere? Any mainstream, works as econmist, even an academic type will do. I am particularly interested in them using the word "infinite growth" as they are so often accused of saying. I only ask because I've never seen it, but have seen it claimed on their behalf more as an interpretation of something they'd said, rather than the saying of the thing itself.
kenneal-lagger wrote: On that basis why couldn't we have electricity that is too cheap to meter?
Maybe if they have claimed such a thing. Sounds too much like starting a proof with "If you assume that 2+2=5, then what follows must be true...".

While similar rhetorical tricks/characterizations were quite common in the early 21st century peak oil world, I am curious if this is just something similar, or a reputable economist actually said such a thing. Based on my professional experience within the economic sphere, it makes no sense whatsoever, and I've never worked with an economist who even came close to suggesting otherwise.
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin
Posts: 14287
Joined: 20 Sep 2006, 02:35
Location: Newbury, Berkshire
Contact:

Re: We are saved!

Post by kenneal - lagger »

Too cheap to meter was a common claim in the UK in the fifties probably heard most often from politicians singing the praises of a nuclear power station in their constituency.

The last time I discussed this with an economist it was with Michael Liebreich after a talk he gave at a local environmental day in West Berkshire. I have also heard it from main stream economists speaking at meetings of the Centre for Understanding Sustainable Prosperity. Professor Tim Jackson, who runs the centre, always speaks against it so it must be a meme which does the rounds in economist circles.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
Post Reply