Yearning and Longing

[RevdTess]

Never really sure what people mean by spiritual need but I think too much of one thing is bad for you. It?s nice to have a mixture of things from plants and animals in the home to walking in the forests and up mountains. I?ve done quite a lot of that, even the survival stuff like building my own shelter and skinning rabbits. I also like to know how things work and why. In the end I never feel dependent on technology but dependent on other people and this planet.

Spirituality is the irrational thing that's missing from all the technocracy writing at the website you keep promoting which is why I'll never subscribe to that point of view any more than I'd sign up to marxism or any other intellectual tour de force.

My goal is simply to be able to exist in landscapes that I love. I feel part of them when I am there, but then I am ripped away and transplanted back into the city, where I wither a little until I can escape again.

But that isn't the whole story. There's also an awareness of the unsustainability of my way of life. I find no fulfillment in finding faster ways to consume energy. I find my dependence on unsustainable technology to be irresponsible, untenable, indefensible, depressing and just plain ugly. There is no beauty in this life and no skill. This must change.

[isenhand]

I often get then impression people use the word ?spiritual? to mean they have an emotional response, if that is the case then I understand that. If it is used in the sense of body ? mind ? sprit or a religion then I don?t

<< Spirituality is the irrational thing that's missing from all the technocracy writing at the website you keep promoting>>

As it?s a people thing, you are absolute right. Technocracy has two sides to it; people and technology. The people side is whatever system you would like (I promote democracy for that side) and includes what people think and feel about their world. That bit is so well know that I don?t think there is much to I can say about it so I don?t. Hopefully, there should be more freedom in a technate to explore those parts of being human. There should be an explosion in art and creativity and what you might call spirituality as well as more opportunities to get back to nature. More opportunity to be human than being a cog in the system wasting our lives away making someone else richer!

The other side is managing the technology, which is what the technocracy bit is more about. Technology runs according to physical laws so peoples so should be run by people who understand the physics of the system.

<< But that isn't the whole story. There's also an awareness of the unsustainability of my way of life. I find no fulfillment in finding better and faster ways to consume energy. I find my dependence on unsustainable technology to be irresponsible, untenable, indefensible, depressing and just plain ugly. There is no beauty in this life and no skill. This must change.>>

I agree. That?s why I keep using the word ?balance?. Taking a ?spiritual? point of view (in the sense of a religion) it?s a bit like Buddhism with its idea of a middle way

[RevdTess]

I often get then impression people use the word ?spiritual? to mean they have an emotional response, if that is the case then I understand that. If it is used in the sense of body ? mind ? sprit or a religion then I don?t
...
I agree. That?s why I keep using the word ?balance?. Taking a ?spiritual? point of view (in the sense of a religion) it?s a bit like Buddhism with its idea of a middle way

It would be simpler if I could say spiritual = emotional but there's also something else, an irrational yet compelling perspective on the beauty or ugliness of certain expressions of life. I guess you can also say that's an emotional response if you wish. I'm definitely not talking about religion or beliefs or right and wrong or anything like that.

I take your point about technocracy not dealing with human systems because it's not part of its remit. I think in fact the human side is 95% of the difficulty. I'm happy to leave you to argue the case for technocracy if you think it will help, but the writings on that website leave me cold and seem for all the world like they were written by people who prefer machines to people...

[isenhand]

I take your point about technocracy not dealing with human systems because it's not part of its remit. I think in fact the human side is 95% of the difficulty.

and the most difficult part and the part with no ?right? answer! When it come to situations where its opinions that count rather than physical reality like that I think democracy is best way. Freedom of speech and freedom of movement, that sort of thing.

One of the best descriptions of technocracy I have seen is to compare it to a video manual. The manual tells you what to do to get the best out of the machine like press ?play? to play. However, it does not tell you what to record or if you should pause when the adverts are on.

Technocracy is the manual but what to record is the people part.

I'm happy to leave you to argue the case for technocracy if you think it will help, but the writings on that website leave me cold and seem for all the world like they were written by people who prefer machines to people...

Thanks for that. Maybe I should think about writing a bit more about the people side of things

[RevdTess]

Thanks for that. Maybe I should think about writing a bit more about the people side of things

lol sorry!

[isenhand]

No problem, it will probably be a good thing to do

[Andy Hunt]

Tess - the Welsh have a word "hiraeth", which is untranslatable, but roughly means 'a distant longing (for home/the country)', a kind of memory of, and a desire to return to a long-lost eden.

I think that this feeling is deep within all of us, a cry to feel once more at one with the nature which gave us life.

I've spent this summer organising my small backyard garden around broadly permacultural principles, trying to keep some colour but getting in a section for perennial berries and beets, and a section for annual veg too, as well as a small water garden with ponds and a waterfall. Being out there most days, and being in contact with nature and the changing of the seasons, I have found to be profoundly therapeutic.

I only live in a little terraced town house, but my involvement with nature, albeit on a very small scale, has put me back in touch with my own moods and I feel much more 'whole'. Plus of course, I get to eat the tasty stuff out of my little plot!

Although you feel this 'hiraeth', it may not be necessary to move out into the styx to 'get back to nature'. If you don't have a yard that you can turn into a small garden, maybe you can get a city centre plot somewhere. You don't need much land to reconnect, just enough. And don't forget that a lot of land means a lot of work!

If you have enough land to keep your sanity connected to the natural world, and produce enough food to take a bit of weight off the system, you might find that a little goes a long way . . .

Either that, or go for that cottage in Anglesey! God only knows why the owner is going to Canada - most people would give their right arm for a little cottage like that!!!

[RogerCO]

Spirituality is the irrational thing that's ...

I don't think that spirituality is irrational. Its just something that we don't fully understand. All attempts to codify spirituality in religious (or quasi-religious) terms I find deeply unsatisfactory (and in fact irrational).

Concepts of beauty and quality come in to it.

(for an interseting discussion of 'quality' see Pirsig's second book, "lila" published 1992 (not Zen & Art of Motorcycle Maintenance) - I see there is also something else called "lila's child" but I've not read it)

[beev]

That is such an amazing book (the Pirsig one). The full title is "Lila: An Enquiry into Morals". Essential.

[RevdTess]

Tess - the Welsh have a word "hiraeth", which is untranslatable, but roughly means 'a distant longing (for home/the country)', a kind of memory of, and a desire to return to a long-lost eden.
...

Great post Andy, thanks.

It is difficult to identify exactly what the need is that manifests as a 'yearning for home'. I am reminded of Ursula Le Guin's book "Always Coming Home" which as a title sums up my life's psychological journey. One might assume that 'home' is never in fact achieved, or that there are many 'homes' which seem to be 'it' for a while, only to become dissatisfying over time.

There have been many 'places' or situations I considered to be my ultimate goal over the years, and the act of pursuing the goal always changes the pursuer, and hence changes the goal.

But this is okay. The pursuit itself is fun, and the frustration is totally acceptable as the engine that drives me onwards. I dont mind that the goal keeps changing - I just dont want to be standing still, never making any effort to move towards it. That sort of life is a waste by my reckoning.

I am still not sure if my current goal is to reconnect with the earth, or to ease my embarrassment that I am part of a society that has no respect for the awesome biological systems that spawned it. I see no particularly reason why humanity should be filled with sacred awe at the wonders of creation and existence, but I am, and it is painful that my life doesn't reflect that.

So I could certainly get an allotment and get reconnected with the cycles of the seasons, but would that really address my sense that my life is wasting away in living for tomorrow? I doubt it really.

I have this sense that there are things - meaningful things - that I'm meant to be doing, and until I feel that I'm doing them, I can't be comfortable.

Some would answer this by learning to be comfortable in the circumstances in which they find themselves... this is not me, at least not for now.

So yeah, it's all quite irrational. I don't believe in any universal 'meaning' and 'purpose', but I do know that my sense of fulfillment depends on pursuing a purpose that has meaning for me.

Therefore I will continue to search for 'home'... until I stop; at which point I will realise that I was always where I needed to be. This is the way of things, and quite perfect

[RevdTess]

I don't think that spirituality is irrational. Its just something that we don't fully understand. All attempts to codify spirituality in religious (or quasi-religious) terms I find deeply unsatisfactory (and in fact irrational).

Concepts of beauty and quality come in to it.

You say that as if there's something wrong with irrationality

I just use the term to mean that I have insufficient intellectual justification or understanding of what I want to do to be able to explain it to anyone else (or even to myself).

As far as I'm concerned, the rational explanations for actions are all made up after the fact anyway. It's a secondary thought process sitting on top of the primal gut instinct decisions we all make.

So I would say that my desire to live a less comfortable but more spiritual, sacred, interdependent, practical life would be irrational, because I can't explain why I feel that way, either to myself or anyone else. To be honest I cant even describe the sort of life I wish to be living. It's still one of those "I'll know it when I see it" things, much to my frustration.

[RevdTess]

That is such an amazing book (the Pirsig one). The full title is "Lila: An Enquiry into Morals". Essential.

This I assume is Lila in the sense of 'the dance or play of the universe'?

If so, that concept forms the basis of my spirituality - but then I think we touched on that in another thread.

First one understands that all things are lila. Then one understands that ones frustrations are also lila. Then one feels okay about whatever happens. Then when 'whatever happens' includes periods of feeling not okay about whatever happens, this is also okay.

And then mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers. Chop wood, carry water, etc.

Moving swiftly on...

[edit: I see from a quick google search that the 'Lila' in this instance is the name of one of the characters in the book, thus rendering my assumption (and therefore my post) entirely moot. Ah well.]

[beev]

This I assume is Lila in the sense of 'the dance or play of the universe'?

I've never heard of this Lila. Sounds interesting, though. Certainly I often think of life as being like a dance. A complex yet beautiful interaction, pulling sometimes this way sometimes that way, always seeking perfect harmony yet never quite finding it as long as the music continues.

when 'whatever happens' includes periods of feeling not okay about whatever happens, this is also okay.

Yes. Seems to me the 'not okay' periods are the ones that drive change. Without change, life would be meaningless.

I see from a quick google search that the 'Lila' in this instance is the name of one of the characters in the book, thus rendering my assumption (and therefore my post) entirely moot.

Quite possibly, Pirsig was trying to make some sort of reference.

[SherryMayo]

Regarding spirituality -
In the past I always described myself as an atheist because I didn't believe in a deity, but like others describe here I felt an "irrational" wonder at, and connection with the universe and nature. I recently discovered that this can be described as pantheism which at least gives me something more accurate to write on census forms than "jedi".

[isenhand]

Hmm ? interesting discussion but it still seams to me that spirituality = emotions.

A longing for home and an awe at the Universe and other such irrationalities are all the sort of things I feel too (does that mean we are all human?) but I would describe them in emotional terms and never uses words like ?spirituality? nor ?sacred?.

I have a friend, we both have the same interest in visiting ancient sites such as stone circles, stone age burial mounds and rune stones, that sort of thing. She describes her experiences in spiritual terms and I in emotional terms. I think we talk about the same things but I think we just use different words.

this can be described as pantheism which at least gives me something more accurate to write on census forms than "jedi".

Maybe its just me but I do have trouble imagining such a respected physicist running around with a light saber battling Darth Vader!